Call this guy, he can help you.
Posted on 03/27/2003 8:26:19 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez
I was completely numb as I watched the videos of the attack on September 11. As the attack was investigated and we learned that the perpetrators were Islamic terrorists, I could not shake the thought that something in their religion made these attacks seem legitimate in their eyes.
So I started, very cautiously, to look into what Islam stands for and what it considers important. I did not want to jump to conclusions. I wanted to know the truth. As a Christian and a serious student of the Bible, I am familiar with the bloody passages of the Old Testament. For this reason I proceeded with caution in my research. My goal was to discover the truth about Islam. My research did include some limited reading of the Qur'an (known in the West as the Koran), but it mainly consisted of reading and listening to people who were very knowledgeable of the religion.
First of all, in order to understand Muslims we need to know what they think of Allah, and we need to look at their worldview. We need to understand moderate Muslims, but we also need an understanding of the radical point of view.
Dr. Samuel Schlorff, an expert on Islam with Arab World Ministries, has written an excellent paper on the religion. He makes a scholarly comparison between Christianity and Islam. Much of the information used in this article regarding the history of Islam was drawn from this paper.
Here are some key points of Islamic theology:
1. Allah is Absolutely Transcendent
Allah is unlike anything that exists. This means that Allah is completely mysterious. Muslims believe that they can know the truth about him, but they can't have any knowledge of him as a person. He is a distant god who lets only his will be known.
2. Divine Guidance
Muslims believe the Qur'an offers guidance for living life and it is usually referred to as "a guidance and mercy for believers." (Sura 27:77) Their law (the Shari'ah) consists of the Qur'an as well as other materials.
3. Islam is from Heaven
The Qur'an describes its revelation as a "sending down" of material from a heavenly being. Because it came in the Arabic language, it is referred to as a heavenly language. From this idea stems the thought that an Islamic community is of heavenly origin. Dr. Nabil Jabur was interviewed recently on Moody radio. He is the author of the book The Rumbling Volcano, which deals with radical Islam. He states that the Qur'an is comprised of recitations given by Muhammad, which Muslims believe came from Allah for specific situations. Thus, when Muhammad was experiencing a tranquil period in his life, the tolerant recitations came forth. When he was having problems with three Jewish tribes, the militant recitations came forth. The Qur'an teaches both peace and war.
Some verses dealing with tolerance are:
Sura 2:5-6 - There is no compulsion in religion.
Sura 5:82 - The nearest in affection to the believer are those who say we are Christian.
Dr. Jabur stated. "When only one side of the Qur'an is presented alone, that is not the truth."
4. A Community in Submission
The Islamic view of the world is that man is inherently good. If man is depraved by society, then any government can create a perfect society by enforcing Islamic law. Muhammad was the head of state of Medina, which Muslims believe was a perfect society. This form of Islamic government is considered by Muslims to be an example of living in true submission to divine law. This degree of submission is greater than any that exists outside of Islam. For Muslims such a community represents the kingdom of Allah on earth. They believe the future of Islam is to dominate the whole House of War (which is how they refer to the entire non-Muslim world) until it is controlled by an Islamic state. The ultimate goal is that the entire world be under Islamic law.
What does the word Islam mean? We have been told, that Islam is related to the Arabic word meaning "peace." This is partially accurate, except that the word means a specific kind of peace. A more accurate translation is "surrender" or "submission." It describes the calm that exists when a vanquished soldier lays down his arms in submission. Dr. Schlorff states, "The truth is that there is another side to Islam, a side that embraces violence 'in the way of Allah.'"
Sura 2:216 - Fighting is prescribed for you.
Sura 2:190-192 - Fight in the cause of god, those who fight you enslave them. Fight them until there is no more persecution and oppression and there prevails justice and faith in god.
Sura 9:5 - Fight and enslave infidels.
During his interview Dr. Jabur was asked what the typical Muslim would think of Osama bin Laden. Would they approve or disapprove of what he is doing? He stated that it would be possible for religious Muslims to have either opinion. Some are embarrassed by what bin Laden is doing. Others think that grievances which have existed for years have come to a head in a justified violent retaliation.
Dr. Jabur tried to illuminate the meaning of a phrase which is used by Muslims and which has not been explained to us. Jihad does not mean holy war. Jihad means "striving for god." It comes in three degrees: 1) Striving against sin in one's own life; 2) The act of motivating others to do good; and 3) Using violent means to stop a wrong act is justifiable if necessary. This third degree is the one with which we are most familiar.
After Muhammad died in Medina he was succeeded by four caliphs who ruled in his place. (A caliph is "one who comes after.") The leadership of Muhammad's Islamic society was divided. Sunnis accept that all four were legitimate. Shi'ites believe that only one, Ali, was the rightful successor. The result has been a division within the Muslim world pertaining to Islamic law and spiritual authority. That is why we do not have a single Muslim leader to whom the world can appeal to stand up and lead the Muslims of the world away from bin Laden.
Shortly after the Attack, Chuck Colson brought up some very interesting points on his radio show, Breakpoint. He stated that due to the lack of widely recognized Islamic leadership, bin Laden is attempting to unify the radical Muslims living in moderate Muslim states. He would like nothing more than to have them overthrow those states so that he can unify them and install himself as the leader of one large radical Islamic nation, and wage war against the West. As evidence of this, he pointed out that bin Laden has not shown much interest in the Palestinians in the past. Now he is speaking out in their behalf in order to gain their support.
Of course most Muslims do not support such violence as terrorism. However watching a Muslim country being bombed day after day might change the minds of even the most moderate and cause them to support bin Laden. Perhaps that is the plan: Goad Muslims into hating the West so much that anything goes. The Qur'an supports both violence and peace. They may think that they can use violence now and then have peace on their own terms later
Call this guy, he can help you.
By "drain the swamp", I don't mean the extermination of the Islamic community, but rather to examine the incentive structure and see where it can be changed.
One big issue is the Islamic madrassas, and how they and the radical clerics are producing a steady supply of Jihaadists. The Saudis are behind a lot of the financing of these radicals. What do the Saudis expect to gain? The answer to that question could provide an answer to the problem.
One possibility is that the Saudis want to use their financed network to exert political influence beyond their borders. The threat of "civil unrest" in European countries with large Muslim populations (eg France, Germany) may be a significant factor in these countries decisions
If you follow the money that finances the radicals, and deal with the people behind the money, you may go a long way to calming things down. I'm thinking that Bush's long-term strategy is to secure iraq before dealing with the Saudis
I call it "Spot The Radical Fundamentalist Religious Extremist".
Cool. Go to town.
Middle East: Caught Between The 'Street' And The U.S., Arab States Brace For Impact Of War
By Jean-Christophe Peuch
With events unfolding in Iraq, the Arab world is being stirred by a wave of public protests that have created a new predicament for regional governments. Iraq's neighbors, in particular, fear the U.S.-led war may lead to dramatic changes in the region and bring serious challenges to their regimes.
Prague, 28 March 2003 (RFE/RL) -- From Bahrain to Tunis, almost daily street demonstrations have taken place over the past week to denounce the U.S.-British military intervention in Iraq.
Some rallies have turned violent, notably in Cairo and in the Yemeni capital Sana'a, where security forces killed at least two protesters last week (21 March).
Regardless of political complexion, newspapers across the Arab world are voicing solidarity with the Iraqi people and castigating those regional governments that have discreetly supported the U.S. war plans in hopes Washington would rapidly topple Iraqi President Saddam Hussein's feared regime....
Radio Free Europe
March 28th, 2003
A Palestinian girl makes a victory sign next to a poster of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein during a protest by schoolchildren in Gaza City.Hearts and Minds In the Battle for Arab Public Opinion, Americans May Be Losing to Saddam
A M M A N, Jordan, March 28 — A week into the war, Saddam Hussein — long discredited and even despised in the Arab world — is gaining the kind of support many here would never have imagined. And who's helping him? Many Arabs say it's the Americans.
The Arab media argue the Americans are being less truthful than the Iraqis. The sense here is when the Iraqis make claims — downed helicopters, captured American soldiers — reported American denials are then contradicted by visual evidence such as showing the captured soldiers on television.
The Pentagon waits for soldiers' families to be informed before publicly confirming captures, but that delay is seen in this part of the world as a stalling tactic or outright deception.
As for Americans' claims — the surrender of high-ranking Iraqi officers, the capture of cities such as Umm Qasr — Arab journalists seem to relish pointing out that these claims are often proved false.
"I believe the Americans lost the propaganda war from day one of this war, simply because they told inaccurate information," said Abdul Bari Atwan, editor of Al-Quds al-Arabi, an Arab-language newspaper in London.
So despite the fact that coalition forces — after one of the fastest advances in military history — are within 50 miles of Baghdad, … despite the fact that the allies have seized Iraq's southern oil fields, … despite the fact that they've so far prevented the Iraqis from firing off any Scud missiles at Israel … despite all of this, … Saddam may very well be surveying the battlefield tonight with satisfaction.
ABC News
March 28th, 2003
Thousands of Muslims Take Part in Anti-War Demonstrations After Friday Prayers
Tetiana Anderson
Cairo
28 Mar 2003, 18:15 UTC
For the second week in a row, thousands of people rallied in Egypt after Friday prayer to voice their opposition to the U.S.-led war in Iraq.
AP Grand Sheik of Al-Azhar, Mohammed Sayed Tantawi
(File photo, April 14, 2002)Amid cheers of approval the Grand Sheikh of Al Azhar, Sayid Tantawi, delivered a speech at Friday prayer in Cairo condemning the war in Iraq as unjust.
An estimated 15,000 people rallied in old Cairo and outside the Al Azhar mosque carrying signs in English and Arabic reading "stop the killing" and chanting for the redemption of Baghdad. Al Azhar is one of the most respected institutions of Islamic learning in the region.
Elsewhere in the region, police in Jordan beat back about 1,000 demonstrators trying to break into the Israeli embassy in the capital, Amman. In Iran's capital, Tehran, protesters smashed windows at the British Embassy.
Anti-war demonstrations Reuters news agency also reported that thousands of anti-war protesters took to the streets in the northern Lebanese city of Tripoli and in the Palestinian Gaza Strip. Other protests were seen in packed streets and squares from Bahrain to Egypt.
Mohammed Sulieyman, secretary general of Egypt's ruling National Democratic Party, which reportedly facilitated permits for today's rally in Cairo, had this to say about the U.S.-led war in Iraq.
"The case is not Saddam Hussein, the case it is the people, it is a country, it is the freedom of the country, freedom of Iraq," he said. "And it is [a] self-independent country. America and Britain should leave [the] Iraqi people to decide what it would like to do."
Anti-war demonstrations Unlike last week's unsanctioned demonstrations, which turned violent, the protests this time went off peacefully amid hundreds of riot police and blockades that stretched for miles from the American Embassy deep into Cairo's city center.
Most Arab governments and people are opposed to the war on Iraq, but their feelings about Iraq's leader are not so clear cut.
"I think all Arabian people don't like Saddam Hussein, but the war is only about Saddam Hussein," said one demonstrator in Egypt. "You can do anything with Saddam Hussein, maybe you can transfer him to another country. But I don't think to kill all the people because of Saddam Hussein. I don't think that."
Chanting "death to America" and denouncing Saddam Hussein's dictatorship, tens of thousands of Iranians took to the streets in Tehran following Friday prayer. It was described as the first major anti-war rally in the country since U.S.-led forces stormed into Iraq last week.
Voice of America
March 28th, 2003
War in Iraq increases Muslim rage in Egypt
By PAUL ADAMS
From Saturday's Globe and MailCairo — When Arabs demonstrate against the war in Iraq these days, many march under the banner of Muslim fundamentalism. Yesterday, for the second week running, thousands of people marched from Cairo's Al-Azhar mosque after prayers in a demonstration organized by the outlawed Muslim Brotherhood.
These scenes have not been witnessed for decades in Egypt and raise what some may consider disturbing questions about whether the war in Iraq may inadvertently contribute to a revival in radical Muslim politics.
An estimated 15,000 people joined the demonstration, some carrying cartoons of a naked Statue of Liberty, while others chanted: "We are all one nation against the Zionist-American aggression."
The Globe and Mail
March 29th, 2003
Middle Eastern Islamic leaders push followers toward holy war
Knight Ridder Newspapers
CAIRO, Egypt - (KRT) - Calls for holy war rang out across the Middle East on Friday and thousands massed in protest, though governments avoided a repeat of the fierce and bloody riots that resulted in deaths last week following traditional Islamic prayers.
Islamic leaders in Saudi Arabia, Lebanon and Iraq appealed to Allah in anger at the U.S.-led attack on Iraq and encouraged their followers to engage in holy war. The governments of Egypt, Jordan and Iran all sanctioned protests.
In Jordan, the preacher Sheik Zeid Kilani compared Iraqi President Saddam Hussein to Saladin, the great Islamic warrior against the Crusaders.
"This battle has forced Saddam to return to God," the sheik said.
Some of the weekly sermons could be interpreted as advocating self-defense in the face of what many here see as disproportionate military aggression. But others addresses were clearly intended to incite attacks.
Arabic-language television stations, which broadcast via satellite throughout the world, picked up the remarks of Iraqi clerics who implored Muslims in the United States and Great Britain to raise the banner of jihad in those countries and to target everything from gas stations to airports....
San Jose Mercury-News
March 28th, 2003So, did you find any?
There is no “Jihad” going on
Luis Gonzalez
March 28th, 2003Maybe not.
"Calls for holy war rang out across the Middle East on Friday and thousands massed in protest."
If there is a Jihad going on, why would all these people be calling for a Jihad to start?
Fess up Toothy, you're Lanny Davis aren't you?
The call was 11 minutes.
What "audience" and how would you know what they're thinking? Even if you had an "audience" (lol) on that insufferable snooze-fest, you obviously have no idea what they want, as is evident by the endless time you spend dronging on hoping someone calls in. "Come on people, you need to call in...ya know...ya know ....ya know ....ya know .....ya know". Face it Louie, nobody's listening. Audience = 4 people looking for a sleep aid.
So you're admitting that it was a hang up, as opposed to it being a "lost" call as you told the "audience"?
Hint: Pros, wrap up the conversation and go on to the next caller, they don't hang up and pretend they were "disconnected". But then again you never have a next caller to go to.
In case you don't remember, the topic of the show was "all things Hispanic". My issue was the 70 Cuban families that are about to have their homes bulldozed because Jebby and Gail Norton have their lips sewn to the asses of the enviro-whacks. Was that not a "Hispanic" issue, or did you want to talk about f***ing burritos or something?
You neocons leftists are truly a whacked bunch.
Continued...
THE ARAB STREET
Thousands Across Mideast Protest, Urging Holy War Against Allies
By NEIL MacFARQUHAR
Denis Doyle/Associated PressProtesters against the war in Iraq ripped an American flag after Friday Prayers outside the mosque of Al Azhar University in Cairo.
AMASCUS, Syria, March 28 — Protesters took to the streets by the thousands across the Middle East today after Friday Prayers, with calls for a holy war against the American and British forces in Iraq ringing out from minarets throughout the region.
One of the most remarkable demonstrations was in the Iranian capital, Tehran, where tens of thousands of marchers turned out in a government-organized rally to denounce the war against Iraq even though President Saddam Hussein is still reviled in Iran for starting the 1980-88 war between the two countries.
Demonstrators in Tehran chanted both "Death to Saddam" and "Death to America." They also shattered windows in the British Embassy, pelting the building with stones while shouting for its closing.
New York Times
March 28th, 2003Nope, no jihad here.
Yes. If he said "ef you idiot" and hung up, or on the other hand said "I gotta run, so let's wrap this up" it wouldn't be an issue. That would be sincere.
But no, he hangs up intentionally and then leads the audience (all four listeners) to believe we were disconnected. Despite the fact that I knew that we weren't, I still tried to be nice to ol' banana-boy on the forum afterward, but he won't have it. Like most (or all) neocon liberals, you're either with them 100% or you're the enemy.
"Your reading and comprehension skills suck"
"You do good work Toothy, unfortunately, you do it for Usama bin Laden."
"..Shows a definite lack of intelligence"
"...Spot The Radical Fundamentalist Religious Extremist..."
"Put the bottle down and things will become clearer when not viewed through a single malt haze"
"Fess up Toothy, you're Lanny Davis aren't you"
And then....
"BTW, lacking the intellect to continue the debate, I see that you are already launching into personal attacks....Shows a definite lack of intelligence"
As to your last point, anyway, I couldn't agree with you more.
Well Luis, you just couldn't resist, eh? Saber is not trying to make this into a 'Holy Crusade', he's just being rational in his perspective of Islamism. I happen to agree with the first portion of the sentence, that what we are witnessing IS a clasj of civilizations; Islam injects its totalitarian 'geist' into the adherents, and if you haven't come to that conclusion yet, don't slam Saber for having done so!
It might be instructive to consider the evolution of enlightenment in Islam as the world has changed, an evolution that may be seen in men like Mansoor Ijaz as juxtaposed with Osama bin Laden and the vast majority of the irrational Arab street mentality that feeds itself on hate and bloodlust. Islam as practiced by Mansoor Ijaz CAN co-exist with other religions; Islam as practiced by Osama and the street Arabs who chant and dance and scream for your blood and mine simply because we are free men of the West cannot and doe not desire to co-exist. That, my friend, is the stuff of clashing civilizations. Mansoor practices enlightened religion (albeit not to my taste and I shall continue to try and reach men such as Mansoor with the Salvation of Christ) that desires to worship in peace. Sadly, the demonic manifestation of radical Islamism shows that branch of Islam doesn't want to co-exist or live in peace. We are in a clash of civilizations when up against Islamism. I sincerely hope you can come to differentiate these manifestations of Islam; one will co-exist with you, until the other murders the peaceful Moslems and anything Western or non-Islamism.
;)
I do!!! LOL
Hey can I refer to this post next time I'm getting smacked around. (Probably pretty soon).
Well, Muhammad wrote the Qu'ran, the handbook of violence that Osama has mastered. Moreover, Muhammad set the example by slaughtering tens of thousands of innocent men, women, and children to spread his religion. So, in a most powerful way, Muhammad inspired the attacks of 9/11.
Unfortunately, Muhammad is dead. So you'll have to settle on completely destroying the men he inspired.
Go get 'em. Luis. Make 'em pay.
"Islam as practiced by Mansoor Ijaz CAN co-exist with other religions; Islam as practiced by Usama and the street Arabs who chant and dance and scream for your blood and mine simply because we are free men of the West cannot and doe not desire to co-exist."
A couple of thoughts.
Right now, the Arab street is a mirror of the French street, the German street, the British street, and even the American street. In Arab countries, they scream for our blood, in England, they scream for Bush and Blair's heads, and in the US, the "street" blames right wing conservatives for this war. The reaction of the street right now is not indicative of a clash of civilizations, but rather the mix of Muslims and western ideologists indicates a rejection of what’s going on in Iraq. In contrast, with the exception of some activity in Pakistan, I don’t recall seeing the Arab street have this sort of reaction to our invasion of Afghanistan. I think Pakis may have been a lot more concerned with the involvement of their government than anything else.
There is no clash of civilizations yet, and there is no Jihad yet. There are the actions of terrorists, using Islam as a disguise for their crimes, and whose true goals have a lot more to do with power than religion, and they are desperately trying to create enough reason by Muslim clerics to call for Jihad. Usama bin Laden, tired of clerics not calling for a Holy War against the west, declared war all on his own.
The Arab street right now is not chanting for our blood simply because we are free men of the west Marvin, they are doing it because they see our invasion of Iraq as an unprovoked attack on a sovereign nation, that should not be too difficult to understand, considering the vast number of Americans who hold the identical belief…a lot of them even frequent this forum.
Now, go back at your statement above…if Islam is the enemy, and Islam is inherently evil, how could there be men like Mansoor Jiaz, and Kabbani? How can there be countries with predominantly Muslim populations that are not experiencing the sorts if problems that have existed in the Middle East for the last 30 years or longer? The key is in your own statement, a statement by the way, that asserts my every argument, and defeats every single “Islam is the enemy” post in this forum…”Islam as practiced by…”
Usama bin Laden had to justify his breach if Islamic law in the attacks of 9/11, Islamic law clearly forbids the killing of other Muslims, and non-combatants. He justified his atrocity by declaring that the people in the towers, including the Muslims in the towers, were combatants in the effect that they were waging a financial war on Islam.
I have a neighbor who is a devout Muslim, we have a friendly relationship, and we chat occasionally. He was terrified by the events of 9/11, and made it a point to mention that the people who had committed such an act, were acting against the will of Allah, and that they would suffer for breaking Allah’s law.
Imagine that at that moment, and every time after that, I decided to bring up the fact that Mohammed was a pedophile, that he was the manifestation of Satan on Earth, that Muslims in America should be forced to either convert, or leave the country (a very popular notion here in FR), and that we should nuke Mecca and Medina.
How long do you think it would take before my neighbor turned into my enemy?
And whose fault would it be?
And most important of all, I would have wasted a wonderful opportunity to talk to him about Our Lord Jesus Christ, and His message of hope and salvation for all, and instead, advanced the idea that Christians hated him and his people, and created a lifelong enemy.
I know what I know about Mohammed, and I know what I know about the Quor’an, and I make the choice not to lower myself to the base name-calling and hate rhetoric that so many in here seem to wear like an Armani suit. Jesus’ message is not one of hatred and intolerance, but rather of love, forgiveness, and salvation, even in the face of hatred and intolerance.
If we attack Islam the religion, and not Usama bin Laden the criminal, we will elevate him, and strengthen him.
Pat Buchanan said it best, and I don’t even like Pat Buchanan, but this he got right.
”In the last century, America was threatened by a global communist revolution. Avoiding all-out war, we outlasted it. And we can outlast this Islamist revolution. What we must avoid is a war of faiths, a war of civilizations between Islam and America. And those who propagandize for such a war are the unwitting or willful collaborators of Usama bin Laden."
Saber’s posts trying to get me to discuss Mohammed are no more than an attempt at initiating a flame war with me...he can’t even understand that Mohammed has been dead for over 1400 years, and that he has already been judged.
My God is God Marvin, I have nothing to fear from anyone.
”I sincerely hope you can come to differentiate these manifestations of Islam.”
That statement Marvin, with all due respect, and in absolute honesty, is a load of crap.
I have been the individual in this thread, and one of the individuals in this forum taking crap for months now for being the one who would remind everyone that the actions of Usama bin Laden and Radical Islamofascists are not indicative of Muslims in general, and that there are different manifestations of Islam, it's the very thing that I have been talking about on this thread. It's even the main theme of the editorial. That you should come up with such a patronizing statement in light of what I have been talking about for months now is insulting. Specially coming from a friend.
Imagine that I would tell you that given enough time, I was sure that you would come around to understanding that abortion is wrong.
What "audience" and how would you know what they're thinking?
"What audience"?
Then, who in the hell were you promoting your cause to?
Were you knowingly talking to yourself?
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