"Islam as practiced by Mansoor Ijaz CAN co-exist with other religions; Islam as practiced by Usama and the street Arabs who chant and dance and scream for your blood and mine simply because we are free men of the West cannot and doe not desire to co-exist."
A couple of thoughts.
Right now, the Arab street is a mirror of the French street, the German street, the British street, and even the American street. In Arab countries, they scream for our blood, in England, they scream for Bush and Blair's heads, and in the US, the "street" blames right wing conservatives for this war. The reaction of the street right now is not indicative of a clash of civilizations, but rather the mix of Muslims and western ideologists indicates a rejection of what’s going on in Iraq. In contrast, with the exception of some activity in Pakistan, I don’t recall seeing the Arab street have this sort of reaction to our invasion of Afghanistan. I think Pakis may have been a lot more concerned with the involvement of their government than anything else.
There is no clash of civilizations yet, and there is no Jihad yet. There are the actions of terrorists, using Islam as a disguise for their crimes, and whose true goals have a lot more to do with power than religion, and they are desperately trying to create enough reason by Muslim clerics to call for Jihad. Usama bin Laden, tired of clerics not calling for a Holy War against the west, declared war all on his own.
The Arab street right now is not chanting for our blood simply because we are free men of the west Marvin, they are doing it because they see our invasion of Iraq as an unprovoked attack on a sovereign nation, that should not be too difficult to understand, considering the vast number of Americans who hold the identical belief…a lot of them even frequent this forum.
Now, go back at your statement above…if Islam is the enemy, and Islam is inherently evil, how could there be men like Mansoor Jiaz, and Kabbani? How can there be countries with predominantly Muslim populations that are not experiencing the sorts if problems that have existed in the Middle East for the last 30 years or longer? The key is in your own statement, a statement by the way, that asserts my every argument, and defeats every single “Islam is the enemy” post in this forum…”Islam as practiced by…”
Usama bin Laden had to justify his breach if Islamic law in the attacks of 9/11, Islamic law clearly forbids the killing of other Muslims, and non-combatants. He justified his atrocity by declaring that the people in the towers, including the Muslims in the towers, were combatants in the effect that they were waging a financial war on Islam.
I have a neighbor who is a devout Muslim, we have a friendly relationship, and we chat occasionally. He was terrified by the events of 9/11, and made it a point to mention that the people who had committed such an act, were acting against the will of Allah, and that they would suffer for breaking Allah’s law.
Imagine that at that moment, and every time after that, I decided to bring up the fact that Mohammed was a pedophile, that he was the manifestation of Satan on Earth, that Muslims in America should be forced to either convert, or leave the country (a very popular notion here in FR), and that we should nuke Mecca and Medina.
How long do you think it would take before my neighbor turned into my enemy?
And whose fault would it be?
And most important of all, I would have wasted a wonderful opportunity to talk to him about Our Lord Jesus Christ, and His message of hope and salvation for all, and instead, advanced the idea that Christians hated him and his people, and created a lifelong enemy.
I know what I know about Mohammed, and I know what I know about the Quor’an, and I make the choice not to lower myself to the base name-calling and hate rhetoric that so many in here seem to wear like an Armani suit. Jesus’ message is not one of hatred and intolerance, but rather of love, forgiveness, and salvation, even in the face of hatred and intolerance.
If we attack Islam the religion, and not Usama bin Laden the criminal, we will elevate him, and strengthen him.
Pat Buchanan said it best, and I don’t even like Pat Buchanan, but this he got right.
”In the last century, America was threatened by a global communist revolution. Avoiding all-out war, we outlasted it. And we can outlast this Islamist revolution. What we must avoid is a war of faiths, a war of civilizations between Islam and America. And those who propagandize for such a war are the unwitting or willful collaborators of Usama bin Laden."
Saber’s posts trying to get me to discuss Mohammed are no more than an attempt at initiating a flame war with me...he can’t even understand that Mohammed has been dead for over 1400 years, and that he has already been judged.
My God is God Marvin, I have nothing to fear from anyone.
”I sincerely hope you can come to differentiate these manifestations of Islam.”
That statement Marvin, with all due respect, and in absolute honesty, is a load of crap.
I have been the individual in this thread, and one of the individuals in this forum taking crap for months now for being the one who would remind everyone that the actions of Usama bin Laden and Radical Islamofascists are not indicative of Muslims in general, and that there are different manifestations of Islam, it's the very thing that I have been talking about on this thread. It's even the main theme of the editorial. That you should come up with such a patronizing statement in light of what I have been talking about for months now is insulting. Specially coming from a friend.
Imagine that I would tell you that given enough time, I was sure that you would come around to understanding that abortion is wrong.
he can’t even understand that Mohammed has been dead for over 1400 years, and that he has already been judged.A discussion of Mohammed, the founder of Islam, on a thread about Islam and the Muslims who follow in their founder's footsteps, seems to be fairly pertinent. However, we're now to understand that this constitutes the instigation of a flame war?
Call me ignorant, I guess; I did not know this rule.
Oh, well, things are now crystallized precisely.
Imagine that I would tell you that given enough time, I was sure that you would come around to understanding that abortion is wrong. well, my friend, I wish you had said (or could have said) such a thing to me approximately ten years ago. I did hold to the notion that some abortion for the woman's convenience was not wrong. Thanks to fellow human beings like Askel5, with enough time and her persistence, I did come around to understand that all abortion is wrong.
In the comments regarding Mansoor Ijaz, you will note that I offered there are two perspectives on jihad, that the Islam which Mansoor practices can co-exist with other religions, that the Islam practiced by the Osama's of Islam cannot and does not desire to co-exist with other religions. My Muslim neighbor is of the 'Mansoor camp', and as an American I respect his right to worship as he chooses and will defend his right to do so. I will fight the other Islam, the totalitarian Islamism of the Osama's, however.
Right now, the Arab street is a mirror of the French street, the German street, the British street, and even the American street. I believe you are wrong with that perspective, Luis. And therin lies the clash of civilizations. The Arab street is directed by the bloodlust of Islamism. I don't think bloodlust is driving the other 'streets'. Pakistanis are not Arabs, but the insidious nature of Islamism is driving the bloodlust of those Pakistani 'streets'. In fact, going around the world, wherever one sees the irrational hatred of Isalmics screeching for blood, it is Islamism as an opposition to our civiliztion that drives their bloodlust. I'd characterize that as a clash of cultures ... if one would class this radicalized Islam as 'civilization'.
The Arab street right now is not chanting for our blood simply because we are free men of the west Marvin, they are doing it because they see our invasion of Iraq as an unprovoked attack on a sovereign nation, that should not be too difficult to understand, considering the vast number of Americans who hold the identical belief…a lot of them even frequent this forum. If you look carefully, you will see that our action in Iraq is but the current excuse for their irrationality. The chronicle of such behavior goes back across many acts by America and Israel, and each time it is a bloodlust being expressed. It is not the current action that begets this bloodlust, the bloodlust is there seeking an excuse for expression. I don't see that bloodlust in Men like Mansoor, or in my neighbor.
Now, go back at your statement above…if Islam is the enemy, and Islam is inherently evil ... Bad form, Luis; I didn't say Islam is evil, but I would characterize the clash of Islam and Christianity as one of civilizations, peoples if you will set on a course that clashes in fundamental origins. Christ is God incarnate; Mohammed's allah was an instruction from whom he claimed was Angel Gabriel. I don't accept that Gabriel instructed Mohammed, so I would characterize the foundation of Islam as a lie that Mohammed didn't catch, at best, at worst, Islam is a manmade construct for worship ... idolatry. Do I care about Men like Mansoor Ijaz? Absolutely. He is my fellow human being. [And I'll let you in on something I firmly believe: when a man is taken in a lie, I don't believe God condemns such an man to eternal damnation, and it is the devoutness and sincerity of worship (in Peace, for Christ is the Prince of Peace) that will allow Mansoor Ijaz to someday embrace the truth of the Christ ... in God's own timing as Sovereign over the universe and humankind. In that belief, Mansoor and I can live in peace, for if I am mistaken, it is Mansoor who will lose by his choice, and if allah is the one true God, mansoor would wish for my forgiveness from allah as I pray for his forgiveness in God's timing. Cryptic? Perhaps, but therein lies the geist of man's religions, if they are to co-exist.]
Peace be with you, my friend. I will not contend further in this matter.