Well Luis, you just couldn't resist, eh? Saber is not trying to make this into a 'Holy Crusade', he's just being rational in his perspective of Islamism. I happen to agree with the first portion of the sentence, that what we are witnessing IS a clasj of civilizations; Islam injects its totalitarian 'geist' into the adherents, and if you haven't come to that conclusion yet, don't slam Saber for having done so!
It might be instructive to consider the evolution of enlightenment in Islam as the world has changed, an evolution that may be seen in men like Mansoor Ijaz as juxtaposed with Osama bin Laden and the vast majority of the irrational Arab street mentality that feeds itself on hate and bloodlust. Islam as practiced by Mansoor Ijaz CAN co-exist with other religions; Islam as practiced by Osama and the street Arabs who chant and dance and scream for your blood and mine simply because we are free men of the West cannot and doe not desire to co-exist. That, my friend, is the stuff of clashing civilizations. Mansoor practices enlightened religion (albeit not to my taste and I shall continue to try and reach men such as Mansoor with the Salvation of Christ) that desires to worship in peace. Sadly, the demonic manifestation of radical Islamism shows that branch of Islam doesn't want to co-exist or live in peace. We are in a clash of civilizations when up against Islamism. I sincerely hope you can come to differentiate these manifestations of Islam; one will co-exist with you, until the other murders the peaceful Moslems and anything Western or non-Islamism.
;)
"Islam as practiced by Mansoor Ijaz CAN co-exist with other religions; Islam as practiced by Usama and the street Arabs who chant and dance and scream for your blood and mine simply because we are free men of the West cannot and doe not desire to co-exist."
A couple of thoughts.
Right now, the Arab street is a mirror of the French street, the German street, the British street, and even the American street. In Arab countries, they scream for our blood, in England, they scream for Bush and Blair's heads, and in the US, the "street" blames right wing conservatives for this war. The reaction of the street right now is not indicative of a clash of civilizations, but rather the mix of Muslims and western ideologists indicates a rejection of what’s going on in Iraq. In contrast, with the exception of some activity in Pakistan, I don’t recall seeing the Arab street have this sort of reaction to our invasion of Afghanistan. I think Pakis may have been a lot more concerned with the involvement of their government than anything else.
There is no clash of civilizations yet, and there is no Jihad yet. There are the actions of terrorists, using Islam as a disguise for their crimes, and whose true goals have a lot more to do with power than religion, and they are desperately trying to create enough reason by Muslim clerics to call for Jihad. Usama bin Laden, tired of clerics not calling for a Holy War against the west, declared war all on his own.
The Arab street right now is not chanting for our blood simply because we are free men of the west Marvin, they are doing it because they see our invasion of Iraq as an unprovoked attack on a sovereign nation, that should not be too difficult to understand, considering the vast number of Americans who hold the identical belief…a lot of them even frequent this forum.
Now, go back at your statement above…if Islam is the enemy, and Islam is inherently evil, how could there be men like Mansoor Jiaz, and Kabbani? How can there be countries with predominantly Muslim populations that are not experiencing the sorts if problems that have existed in the Middle East for the last 30 years or longer? The key is in your own statement, a statement by the way, that asserts my every argument, and defeats every single “Islam is the enemy” post in this forum…”Islam as practiced by…”
Usama bin Laden had to justify his breach if Islamic law in the attacks of 9/11, Islamic law clearly forbids the killing of other Muslims, and non-combatants. He justified his atrocity by declaring that the people in the towers, including the Muslims in the towers, were combatants in the effect that they were waging a financial war on Islam.
I have a neighbor who is a devout Muslim, we have a friendly relationship, and we chat occasionally. He was terrified by the events of 9/11, and made it a point to mention that the people who had committed such an act, were acting against the will of Allah, and that they would suffer for breaking Allah’s law.
Imagine that at that moment, and every time after that, I decided to bring up the fact that Mohammed was a pedophile, that he was the manifestation of Satan on Earth, that Muslims in America should be forced to either convert, or leave the country (a very popular notion here in FR), and that we should nuke Mecca and Medina.
How long do you think it would take before my neighbor turned into my enemy?
And whose fault would it be?
And most important of all, I would have wasted a wonderful opportunity to talk to him about Our Lord Jesus Christ, and His message of hope and salvation for all, and instead, advanced the idea that Christians hated him and his people, and created a lifelong enemy.
I know what I know about Mohammed, and I know what I know about the Quor’an, and I make the choice not to lower myself to the base name-calling and hate rhetoric that so many in here seem to wear like an Armani suit. Jesus’ message is not one of hatred and intolerance, but rather of love, forgiveness, and salvation, even in the face of hatred and intolerance.
If we attack Islam the religion, and not Usama bin Laden the criminal, we will elevate him, and strengthen him.
Pat Buchanan said it best, and I don’t even like Pat Buchanan, but this he got right.
”In the last century, America was threatened by a global communist revolution. Avoiding all-out war, we outlasted it. And we can outlast this Islamist revolution. What we must avoid is a war of faiths, a war of civilizations between Islam and America. And those who propagandize for such a war are the unwitting or willful collaborators of Usama bin Laden."
Saber’s posts trying to get me to discuss Mohammed are no more than an attempt at initiating a flame war with me...he can’t even understand that Mohammed has been dead for over 1400 years, and that he has already been judged.
My God is God Marvin, I have nothing to fear from anyone.
”I sincerely hope you can come to differentiate these manifestations of Islam.”
That statement Marvin, with all due respect, and in absolute honesty, is a load of crap.
I have been the individual in this thread, and one of the individuals in this forum taking crap for months now for being the one who would remind everyone that the actions of Usama bin Laden and Radical Islamofascists are not indicative of Muslims in general, and that there are different manifestations of Islam, it's the very thing that I have been talking about on this thread. It's even the main theme of the editorial. That you should come up with such a patronizing statement in light of what I have been talking about for months now is insulting. Specially coming from a friend.
Imagine that I would tell you that given enough time, I was sure that you would come around to understanding that abortion is wrong.