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Foetuses [Fetuses] 'may be conscious long before abortion limit'
The Daily Telegraph ^ | March 10, 2003 | David Derbyshire

Posted on 03/09/2003 4:26:55 PM PST by MadIvan

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To: Hank Kerchief
The fallacy in your arrogant approach is the fact that sleep, which you define as total unconsciousness, is an absolutely necessary precursive condition for the occurence of measurable consciousness.
41 posted on 03/09/2003 6:04:02 PM PST by GopherIt
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To: Hajman
Actually, certain brave wave patterns can determine levels of consciousness (or sub-consciousness, including lucidity levels in REM states). Along with consciousness comes awareness, and there are very specific tests one can use to determine awareness (or even self-awareness, and cognition levels, such as levels of association). EEG readouts can give consciousness information, and certain logic tests can give cognition information.

I have no idea what this mystic nonsense is supposed to mean. In any lucid language, "awareness" is "consciousness." There is no such thing as a "congnition" level, since cognition is aspect of rational/volitional consciousess, that is, the intellect, and no "cogition" exists at least until the rudiments of language are developed.

As for evidence of consciousness, there is absolutely no objective evidence for consciousness in any creature except in my case, my own consciousness, and in your case, (and I'm only assuming here) your own consciousness. I have to take your word for it that you are consciousness because there is no way you can demonstrate it to me, because it is your own subjective experience.

Hank

42 posted on 03/09/2003 6:04:17 PM PST by Hank Kerchief
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To: JoJo Gunn
If someone had killed you when you were one year old, would you remember it today?

No, wait, that argument is deeply flawed...

43 posted on 03/09/2003 6:06:54 PM PST by Dog Gone
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To: Hank Kerchief
You are claiming rigor in an area where it is easy to show you are wrong: You assert the unborn do not suffer. What is so magical about the birth canal or c-section that it is the gateway to sufficient consciousness to enable suffering? That's just laughable.

This inquiry into just when a foetus becomes functionally indistingushable from an infant when it comes to pain and suffering is, at least, a valid pursuit. You're the one spouting dogma.
44 posted on 03/09/2003 6:07:36 PM PST by eno_
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To: WFTR
You are missing a key element of the "clinically dead" diagnosis. A "clinically dead" person will not regain their brain functions. If we were to find a way to restore brain activity to the clinically dead, do you really think we'd treat that state as "dead"?
45 posted on 03/09/2003 6:08:42 PM PST by Question_Assumptions
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To: WFTR
They have a heartbeat by 6wks into it.. that's 6 wks after the mother's last period and 4 weeks after the egg was actually fertilized. By 12wks along they have arms, legs, fingers and toes. I have an ultrasound picture of my daughter when I was 12wks pregnant that shows her sucking her thumb (which she has continued to do since she was born)
46 posted on 03/09/2003 6:10:42 PM PST by honeygrl
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To: Hank Kerchief
There is no known case of any mammal that does not breath being conscious.

You can put a conscious animal (or an adult, if medical ethics allowed for it) on a heart and lung machine that would do the breathing for them. This is a direct analog of what a mother does for her child in the womb.

You may also want to look at marsupials (pre-placental mammals) which are born in a fetal state and then climb into their mother's pouch to suck milk instead of developing a placenta. But the more important to realize is that human children and chimpanzee children develop very closely until about the age of two (when language and the "sentient brain" turn on in human children). There is no "present attribute" criteria sufficient to declare humans conscious and protected while allowing the killing of animals as non-people. Indeed both Michael Tooley and Peter Singer have used this to argue that the right to kill children should extend post-natally with Tooley following the argument to the logical extreme of about two years of age.

47 posted on 03/09/2003 6:14:47 PM PST by Question_Assumptions
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To: Hank Kerchief
I have no idea what this mystic nonsense is supposed to mean. In any lucid language, "awareness" is "consciousness." There is no such thing as a "congnition" level, since cognition is aspect of rational/volitional consciousess, that is, the intellect, and no "cogition" exists at least until the rudiments of language are developed.

I could continue giving you definitions and examples, but I suggest you first read the page on fetal consciousness before continuing to use arguments from ignorance (a logical fallacy).

As for evidence of consciousness, there is absolutely no objective evidence for consciousness in any creature except in my case, my own consciousness, and in your case, (and I'm only assuming here) your own consciousness. I have to take your word for it that you are consciousness because there is no way you can demonstrate it to me, because it is your own subjective experience.

In that case, one can't tell if someone, or something, is consciousness. The results of tests would be indeterminate and inconclusive. The results of such tests don't fall under these results (they are fairly determinate and conclusive. They only get odd when we're working with high level AI). To claim we can't know, is to ignore that we do know. Rocks don't have consciousness. You and I do. Again, your main argument is one from ignorance (and your underlining argument seems to be the logical fallacy that if one subset isn't, or can't be, known, then no subset can be known).

-The Hajman-
48 posted on 03/09/2003 6:19:16 PM PST by Hajman
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To: aruanan
As I approached conception asking the same question, the answers changed from "Yes" to "probably" to "I don't know" to "Probably not" to "No". It gets down to the question of whether being human is something you are or something that you have become.

More accurately, the question is whether it is something that you can be in the future. Indeed, that's the only question that matters. Infants are often less intelligent than adult animals when born. And it is by no means a given in human nature that killing an infant is murder, given the prevalence of infanticide throughout history though the modern day. That said, we've decide that infants are full humans and to kill one is murder. Why? I think for much the same reason why a key element in defining "clinical death" is whether the patient can ever recover. We look the the future. And must.

Indeed, murder is not wrong for the immediate pain it causes. Murder may be performed painlessly and extreme torture can be inflicted yet murder is considered the ultimate "capital" crime. Why? Because it robs a living being of its future in a way that no human can restore. And it is that awareness of a lost future that makes us grieve more, for better or worse, for a young child two dies than an elderly person in a nursing home at the twilight of their life. And it is that awareness of the absence of a future that allows us to consider the perminently brain dead that will never recover "clinically dead" and which allow some to accept that killing the terminally ill could be considered "mercy".

Science fiction is full of examples of the detachment of the present capacity of an individual from their "personhood". The original Star Trek series had an expisode where two crew members were reduced to foam blocks. One was crushed while the other was restored. The implication was clear to any who watched it. The crewmember who was crushed as a foam block was "murdered" because they could no longer be restored. Though is was fantasy, the scene would have had no emotional impact if, looking at the inert block of foam, the audience simply concluded "no brainwaves, no heartbeat, and no conscious so no murder was committed."

As to the hall of life, the key question is missing from this essay. Why does the author (or their father) wander from "yes" to "probably" and eventually to "no"? By what criteria are those transitions made? By how the fetus "looks"? The truth is that there are no non-trivial criteria that will let you declare a human fetus, or even a human infant, a "person" while denying that status to my pet cats. It is only looking at what something can become, if given time to grow or recover, that we can develop criteria consistent with how we define persons from the animals and the clinically dead in every other case.

49 posted on 03/09/2003 6:29:39 PM PST by Question_Assumptions
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To: xJones
The thing that really made me rethink abortion was watching a supposedly innocuious first trimester "little blob of tissue" abortion on PBS. They showed theym sifting through what was removed -- including the little ribs. I have no idea how these people can sleep at night.
50 posted on 03/09/2003 6:32:38 PM PST by Question_Assumptions
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To: MadIvan
The peace protestors who say they value human life should then next go to an abortion clinic and protest there, if they are so set and their ways.
51 posted on 03/09/2003 6:34:27 PM PST by rs79bm
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To: Question_Assumptions
As to the hall of life, the key question is missing from this essay. Why does the author (or their father) wander from "yes" to "probably" and eventually to "no"? By what criteria are those transitions made? By how the fetus "looks"? The truth is that there are no non-trivial criteria that will let you declare a human fetus, or even a human infant, a "person" while denying that status to my pet cats. It is only looking at what something can become, if given time to grow or recover, that we can develop criteria consistent with how we define persons from the animals and the clinically dead in every other case.

Try reading it again. You've missed at least 97% of what's there.
52 posted on 03/09/2003 6:36:55 PM PST by aruanan
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To: MadIvan
While it is true that there is definitely brain function in fetuses, it is only in the more primitive functional regions of the brain. Higher brain function (i.e. the part of the brain responsible for consciousness and most high-level brain functioning) is non-functional until several months after birth. While the neurons grow in the higher brain regions, they are missing some critical (and bulky) components that turn them from useless tissue into functional brain. The missing pieces are added to the brain after birth and only then do you see real higher brain function. The general theory is that this allows an otherwise impossibly large brain to pass through the human birth canal.

So all the neurons you'll have as an adult are essentially present at birth. The 3-4x difference in brain weight from the time you are born to the time you are an adult (most of which is gained in the first few years of life) are the additional components to make the neurons you are born with actually function.

Abortion may be evil, but saying that a fetus is conscious is a real stretch. Babies are essentially born with the level of awareness of a lizard. Which is plenty of brain for bootstrapping; lots of animals never have more than this level of consciousness.

53 posted on 03/09/2003 6:41:27 PM PST by tortoise
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To: aruanan
Oh, I know. But the piece doesn't seem, at least to me, to do a very good job of explaining exactly what the problem is. Maybe the way it worded it was just too soft for me. And I wanted to make sure that any Freeper who was nodding along at the "yes", "probably", "no" phase got left there thinking that's OK.
54 posted on 03/09/2003 6:43:20 PM PST by Question_Assumptions
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To: Hajman
In that case, one can't tell if someone, or something, is consciousness. The results of tests would be indeterminate and inconclusive.

There is a better approach to this. If you decide to set some criteria based on the results of specific tests of brain activity and physiological reactions and call that consciousness, that is fine. This is not really the question. There is a bit of bait-and-switch going on.

No doubt adult human beings are conscious, and I believe other adults have the same kind of consciousness I do, but that is not what we are talking about when people start using consciousness as an argument for or against abortion.

The consciousness they are talking about in that case is the difference between conscious (as in being awake and aware) and being unconscious (as in asleep or under anaesthesia). There is no question that all sorts of brain activity develop along with the physical development of the brain, but none of that is necessarily evidence of being conscious, in the sense of being awake and aware.

If you know a little about anaesthesia, auto-suggestion, pschysomatism, it is even possible for adult human beings to be "awake" and not be fully "conscious" as in aware of such things as pain, or even other sensations.

That the unborn can react to stimuli, develop memory, and exhibit other activities associated with the development of the brain is without question. Whether any of these mean the unborn actually consciously experience anything as a result of these activies cannot be demonstrated, and must seriously be doubted. As one other commentator on this thread mentioned, those born prematurely seldom exhibit any activity indicating "awake" consciousness for some time.

By the way, I believe abortion is wrong, but I believe almost every argument made by those who consider themselves the "anti-abortion" movement has done more to harm their cause and promote abortion than anything the pro-abortion people have done.

Hank

55 posted on 03/09/2003 6:47:02 PM PST by Hank Kerchief
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To: maica
That has to mean a consciousness exists in utero.

Most animals (including some very stupid critters) can recognize the voice of their parents. It is a low-level brain function hard-wired into animal physiology. This is not evidence of consciousness any more than it is for any other animal.

As has been pointed out elsewhere, the higher brain tissue is non-functional until several months after birth, and generally isn't fully "online" in any meaningful sense until a human is around two years old. This is one of the reasons humans don't have memory below a certain age; the parts of the brain that would store and process such memories don't function when you are born and slowly become operational over the first few years of life. The higher brain isn't fully functional until around the age of three.

56 posted on 03/09/2003 6:49:01 PM PST by tortoise
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To: Dog Gone
Speaking of how the mind "works", you remind me of some silly thing I saw years ago in the Weekly World News. It was a "disembodied" head of Richard Burton, and the caption was "I'm dead, but I still love Liz".
57 posted on 03/09/2003 6:51:01 PM PST by JoJo Gunn (Help control the Leftist population. Have them spayed or neutered....)
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To: MadIvan
I would guess that Baroness Greenfield was showing some considerable courage even to make a statement this mild. The abortion lobby will swoop down on her for even saying this much.
58 posted on 03/09/2003 6:51:07 PM PST by George W. Bush
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To: Hank Kerchief
If you read the pages on fetal consciousness, I believe most of your questions (including those about which specific level of awareness the fetus has) would probably be answered (it's a fairly large site, so I certainlly don't expect you to get through it in a few minutes). It covers a great many details such as the ones you brought up.

-The Hajman-
59 posted on 03/09/2003 6:51:59 PM PST by Hajman
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To: tortoise
Abortion may be evil, but saying that a fetus is conscious is a real stretch. Babies are essentially born with the level of awareness of a lizard.

And since we consider the killing of babies, once born, as murder, that suggests that current mental capacity is a bit of a red herring argument, doesn't it? If you look only at the current mental capacity of a being to define "personhood" and still desire to treat animals as non-persons, you will quickly find yourself sliding down the slippery slope towards two year-olds. I invite anyone here who doesn't believe that can happen to read the opinions of Michael Tooley and Peter Singer on infanticide and to research the history of infanticide throughout the ages and around the world. Abortion is simply pre-natal infanticide. Is infanticide murder? I'd hope most people would say "yes".

60 posted on 03/09/2003 6:54:07 PM PST by Question_Assumptions
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