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To: Hajman
In that case, one can't tell if someone, or something, is consciousness. The results of tests would be indeterminate and inconclusive.

There is a better approach to this. If you decide to set some criteria based on the results of specific tests of brain activity and physiological reactions and call that consciousness, that is fine. This is not really the question. There is a bit of bait-and-switch going on.

No doubt adult human beings are conscious, and I believe other adults have the same kind of consciousness I do, but that is not what we are talking about when people start using consciousness as an argument for or against abortion.

The consciousness they are talking about in that case is the difference between conscious (as in being awake and aware) and being unconscious (as in asleep or under anaesthesia). There is no question that all sorts of brain activity develop along with the physical development of the brain, but none of that is necessarily evidence of being conscious, in the sense of being awake and aware.

If you know a little about anaesthesia, auto-suggestion, pschysomatism, it is even possible for adult human beings to be "awake" and not be fully "conscious" as in aware of such things as pain, or even other sensations.

That the unborn can react to stimuli, develop memory, and exhibit other activities associated with the development of the brain is without question. Whether any of these mean the unborn actually consciously experience anything as a result of these activies cannot be demonstrated, and must seriously be doubted. As one other commentator on this thread mentioned, those born prematurely seldom exhibit any activity indicating "awake" consciousness for some time.

By the way, I believe abortion is wrong, but I believe almost every argument made by those who consider themselves the "anti-abortion" movement has done more to harm their cause and promote abortion than anything the pro-abortion people have done.

Hank

55 posted on 03/09/2003 6:47:02 PM PST by Hank Kerchief
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To: Hank Kerchief
If you read the pages on fetal consciousness, I believe most of your questions (including those about which specific level of awareness the fetus has) would probably be answered (it's a fairly large site, so I certainlly don't expect you to get through it in a few minutes). It covers a great many details such as the ones you brought up.

-The Hajman-
59 posted on 03/09/2003 6:51:59 PM PST by Hajman
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To: Hank Kerchief
By the way, I believe abortion is wrong, but I believe almost every argument made by those who consider themselves the "anti-abortion" movement has done more to harm their cause and promote abortion than anything the pro-abortion people have done.

Is this why public opinion is turning more against abortion or why even Norma McCorvey had her mind changed? I think you are confused between what pro-life people are really saying and what the media says they are saying. I've been to the March for Life and the camera crews took great pains go pass by the crowds of nice college studends and pillar of society types to find the loons in the costumes with the strange things to say.

64 posted on 03/09/2003 6:57:52 PM PST by Question_Assumptions
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To: Hank Kerchief
By the way, I believe abortion is wrong, but I believe almost every argument made by those who consider themselves the "anti-abortion" movement has done more to harm their cause and promote abortion than anything the pro-abortion people have done.

Yes, In my mind the question is: when does human life begin? Are the unborn people?

I have friends who think abortion should be legal, they were ‘offended’ by people who thought it should be illegal. They were also offended when I pointed out that people who wanted to outlaw abortion considered it the moral equivalent of putting a loaded gun to the head of a five year old, and pulling the trigger.

The the best argument against abortion is that at some point the unborn are humans, with all the rights of humans. What this point is could be debated, but there must be a point.

73 posted on 03/09/2003 7:12:40 PM PST by Friend of thunder (No sane person wants war, but oppressors want oppression.)
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