Stay Safe !
Posted on 02/21/2003 6:25:53 PM PST by Spidey
The reason I treat Saudi Arabia, specifically Mecca and Medina, as targets, even though they are alleged allies is that I have read and studied the Koran. While the administration does not want to pose this war as a war against Islam, it is just that. Islam teaches world domination moreso than did communism, and the centers of the madrasses or schools where radical Islam is being taught is Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. They are allies only because we hold the ruling elite in power, and this will not last. Then we will be dealing with two more, and more frightening Irans. Better to get the nuclear policy on the table now. Islam cannot exist without Mecca, and the Imams will find some way to teach a new version of Islam that doesn't require world domination if we make it clear that any nuclear, chemical or biological attack on our homeland will be met with an atomic attack with notice on their Holy sites.
Again, I am basically a dove. But Islam is a very dangerous religion when followed as written. And as the stress between the West and the Islamic nations increases, more and more people that are Islamic in name only will turn to their Korans and actually read them. There they will find the directive to conquer all non-believers and then kill or heavily tax those that will not convert. The entire thrust of the book is to divide the world into two spheres: that territory under Islamic rule, and that territory yet to be brought under Islamic rule. And as you probably know, Mohammed himself set the example that the sword is the way to bring land under Muslim rule. The prophet of the West died on the cross rather than raise a hand to hurt his oppressors, and his doctrine soon ruled most of the civilized world. The doctrine of Mohammed is talk first, and if you don't succeed, behead the kafir.
I can certainly see the day when it comes to a battle between Islamic and non-Islamic countries, but, thankfully, that day has not arrived and may be staved off for several decades, depending on the outcome of impending world events. Moreover, I can certainly see how the DOD and DOS are adopting a view similar to your own in matters of national security. They may not say it publicly, of course, for obvious reasons.
I will admit that I have not studied the Quor'an in detail and do not know the intimacies of the religion, only what I have gleaned through Muslim friends of mine. I do not doubt the sincerity of your concerns nor do I wish to minimize them, especially when they have been mirrored by many others over the last two years.
Nevertheless, even you, my friend, must admit that despite the lasting message of love and peace bestowed upon us through Christ, our Savior, the Book of Psalms, for example, is filled with pleas to God to crush enemies and spare believers from their oppressors. When taken at face value, this is a harsh reflection on Christianity; however, when taken in total, particularly the gift of ultimate sacrifice by Christ, Himself, we see the swords of yesteryear put down and supplanted with love.
I hope (perhaps vainly) that moderate Muslim countries (such as Turkey, for example) will shy away from the radical and violent interpretation of Islam and embrace nobler intents. For what it's worth, this has been my personal experience with several Muslim friends and business associates.
I've read conflicting reports on the nature of Islam as a religion and its doctrines. It's obvious that radical Islam in rampant in that portion of the world. As you noted, the administration is carefully couching the issue in other terms, although many groups embracing this doctrine now pose a threat.
Although it may appear we are not in accord, we are, in fact, in complete agreement over Saudi Arabia. They are not perceived as a threat only because they are offering assistance at this crucial junction. They are "playing ball" at this time because they perceive it as necessary to their self-interests. Were this not the case, I daresay they would be on our radar screen and listed as a future target. As indicated above, and as mentioned by you, they may be one day in the near future.
While I understand your objective in targeting Mecca and Medina, and respect the reasoning behind it, I am still apprehensive about utilizing this method to bring order to that region. As inciated in my previous post, I would be enraged should a similar ultimatum be delivered against the Vatican for the actions of rogue Catholics...say in Ireland, perhaps.
In this, shall we respectfully agree to disagree?
Heads up...things are getting dicey in Palestine (although you may be asking, when are they ever calm?). You might be interested in the following post by me, which was retrieved from another thread:
***Abu Abbas is the one-time leader of the Palestinian Liberation Front of Abu Abbas, a terrorist organization that planned several low-tech and continually unsuccessfully terrorist attacks against Israel. One hijacking, however, was successful: the 1985 hijacking of the Italian cruise ship the Atille Lauro, en route from Egypt to Israel. Four of Abbas' henchmen pushed an elderly, wheelchair bound gentleman, named Leon Klinghoffer, over the ship to his death.
The four henchmen and Abbas were captured and sent to Italy. Italy sentenced the four henchmen but released Abbas, only to later sentence him to life in prison in abstenia!
The Abbas faction of the PLF trained in and was supported by IRAQ. Although the Abbas faction and another faction of the PLF later joined together, and Abbas subsequently renounced terrorism, the PLF once again appeared on America's radar screen in SEPTEMBER of 2001, when a cell of 15 PLF members were caught by Israeli officials planning bombing campaigns at several Israeli airports. THESE CELL MEMBERS WERE TRAINED IN IRAQ AND KILLED YURI GUSHSTEIN, AN ISRAELI YOUTH.
Abbas reportedly denounced terrorism in 1996 and supported Arafat's peace talks with Israel; however, both men have continued strong links to terrorist organizations including Hizballah, Hamas, Jihad Islami, and the Arab Liberation Front. The PLF was also the main distribution source of Iraq's $25,000 rewards to terrorists and their families for attacks against Israel and America.
The fact that Arafat would name this name as his Prime Minister is extremely revealing...he is reinforcing his ties to the most radical fundamentalist terrorist factions by placing one of their own in a primary position.
Arafat has already rejected the Palestinian state he claimed he wanted, even though it was being handed to him in what should have been a moment of triumph. He showed his hand a long time ago; his goal is not an independent Palestinian terrority; it is the destruction of Israel. His appointment of Abbas should raise red flags for everyone who cares about peace.
*** If you will recall, we touched on the subject of Israel earlier. I can see a tie-in between the enemies of Israel and the enemies of the United States. I believe that these lists will eventually merge into one...given how all of them are interconnected through Arafat in some form or another, and all desire the end of Israel as a nation and loathe the United States for their support.
Not coincidentally (giving credence to your theory), all these groups are Muslim, too.
I take issue with only your comparison of the Koran and Chistianity, relying on the Old Testament for examples of violence urged by the Christian Holy Book. In this, you, like many Christians, misunderstand the purpose of the Old Testament to Christians, who have a New Covenant or Testament with God that requires no less than self-sacrifice to one's enemies.
The Old Testament is many things. It is a history book, a record of the relationship of the Jews to God, and a collection of poems, songs, and parables by which one might learn wisdom. But it is first and foremost for the Christian three pillars of their faith.
First, it outlines the law under which we find we cannot live and teaches us therefore the need for a saviour. For instance, we are commanded not to be angry with our neighbor, and of course, a better known commandment is that we are not to covet that which is our neighbors. A man with self-honesty will realize quite quickly that he breaks these commandments daily.
Second, the Old Testament is like a neon light of parables pointing to the characteristics of the Messiah so that when He comes, He will be recognized. Two quick examples are the blood of the passover lamb being placed in the shape of the cross on the door of the enslaved Israelites so that their first born sons would not be slain (so that death would pass them by), and the story of Joseph being thown into a well only to be raised again and sit in glory at the right hand of the Pharaoh, unrecognized by his own family, but their final salvation.
Third, the Old Testament is God's genetic engineering plan to produce the woman from which God would cause a man capable of sinlessness to be born. It, in short, records the production of Mary. This is why, among other reasons, the Jews are set apart from other peoples, and why God demands that no intermarriage occur and often even commands acts of violence to prevent it. It is interesting to note in this light that Jesus had prostitutes and traitors in his maternal genetic line.
Other than the aforementioned, the Christian is taught to turn the other cheek, to sacrifice himself rather than strike back, and, like Christ, to go willingly to his doom at the hands of an enemy. Although we cannot do this, we have a Saviour that has done it for us. And we can do the best we can. Compare this to Mohammed, who taught with his actions that Islam is to be spread with the sharp edge of the curved sword. Mohammed conquered with violence to spread his mosaic (partly Jewish, partly Christian, and partly made up) religion, whereas Jesus died to spread his, and forbade his diciples from the use of violence. For a true Christian, although he may fight in self-defense, he knows that he only does so in sin and because he is already forgiven.
Saddam Hussein may not be the only madman who threatens a place called America.
and what kind of excrement is this?
It appears that you misunderstood the nature of this comment. I mentioned that a cursory reading to someone who does not fully comprehend the Bible will reveal acts of violence and calls for the destruction of enemies. Reading the Bible, without guidance, reference, discussion, or contemplation, will not result in an accurate interpretation of Scripture.
Each branch of Christianity views the Bible through a different filter, with emphasis on certain parts of Scripture (although each should accept all of it, in total).
Reading the Koran is not the same as studying it, discussing it with someone who practices that religion, etc. Their interpretation could be dramatically different, when viewed in context of the entire faith.
Is this any clearer?
I agree that each book requires more than a cursory reading to be understood. In fact, I don't believe either book can be understood unless the reader first has laid aside all political, social and preconceived notions about both the book and the world so that the book can write anew upon a fresh mind. My point is that having done so with both books, I found one to ultimately command total submission even to one's enemies and even at the price of one's life. That book, however, knew that it's children could never follow it's commands and therefore sent a substitute to provide prior forgiveness for their failures. The other book, on the other hand, commands it's adherents to submit completely to it, and to force, if necessary, the entire world to do the same. One can easily see how these differences would develop when one compares Christ's submission to the Sanhedrin and the Romans to Mohammed's conquest of Mecca upon his return from Medina. Both religions are founded in blood, but Christianity is founded in the sacrificial blood of Christ, whereas Islam is founded in the blood of the unbelievers (kafirs).
From this distinction between the books, I see a cultural clash that is now and will inevitably lead to global carnage.
As to Jesus and not resisting 'enemies', he himself made a whip and drove the theives from His Father's house and He does not condem self-defense.
I realize it is a difficult problem to wrap one's mind around, but our natioanl self-defense requires something better than containment because terrorist sponsoring states cannot be contained from spreading the weapons of mass murder throughout the world, so those nations must be dealt with through pre-emptive deterrence and/or regime change.
This fact does not make our war against Iraq unjustified. We were never expected to "be perfect." One cannot fail to sin when one lives in a world with sinners like Saddam and Hitler. They must be stopped as a practical matter. Nevertheless, many of the laws of the old testament were laws against actions that had to be taken as practical matters, and therefore, God made certain sacrifices specific to expiate those sins. Likewise, the blood of Christ is sufficient to cover all of the sins that we engage in, whether necessary or not, as He was the final, perfect sacrifice for our seemingly eternal imperfection.
Stay Safe !
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