Democrat Targets .50 Caliber Revolver for Nationwide Ban

CNSNEWS.com ^ | 2/17/03 | Michael L. Betsch

[2nd Amendment]

Old management. recently sold to a solid group of investors with stellar 2nd amendment records!

[KrisKrinkle]

I agree, but a lot of people on both sides of the gun control line don't see it that way.

[Inyo-Mono]

"This is not the Wild West. It hasn't been for a long time."

The gungrabber has it absolutely correct, but for reasons she doesn't understand. Today's inner cities are actually considerably more violent than the cities in the "Wild West" ever were. The "Wild West" was largely a myth perpetuated by overzealous travel writers and dime novelists.

Dead on. And for anyone who thinks the frontier was more violent than today's inner cities should read Roger D. McGrath, Gunfighters, Highwaymen,& Vigilanties, Violence on the Frontier, published by... gasp... the University of California Press, Berkeley.

[Inyo-Mono]

"You don't go out hunting deer with a revolver," Davis said. "Those of us who live in big, urban centers have a different fear and a different take than some people who may live in different environments." - Demo Gungrabber

... which is why a nationwide ban is being proposed here. They're already banned in Chicago, it's a handgun. But somebody who owns one in, say, Colorado is still enough of a risk that they can't stand to allow such ownership. - coloradan

Not only Colorado, but in any rural area of the West. In the remote area where I live, we fear mountain lions much more than gangbangers, and you need a hand gun for protection. When I go out in boonies which in my case, is a mile or more from my house, I often fear for my life as there are so many lions about. I know - a few years ago, I was stalked by two lions that came within seven feet of attacking me. Unarmed, I was able to bang a trash can lid to scare them away.

[CCWoody]

Velocity is what goes thru armor, rather than just muzzle energy ~ SOM

And your credentials as an expert on the subject are....?

Woody.

P.S. Yes, I am an expert on engineering so I need to establish your credentials so I know if we can have an intelligent conversation or not.

[OldCorps]

What's the retail price of the pistol? Anyone know?

I'll bet the bullets go for a cool $20 a box.

[Centurion2000]

"It's hard for me to rationalize any particular need or purpose" for the 500 Magnum, said Rep. Danny Davis (D-Ill.). "I think guns are made to kill people. That's my opinion."

Since when to the 'people' have to have a reason or need for a handgun ?? God, these communists make me SICK !!

[Mr_Magoo]

I hate to admit that this ass-wipe Davis is the congresscritter for IL-7th district. The district I live in.

The shame of it is that due to the strange way the district was drawn, this district is 80% to 85% urban black dummocrap. Those of us in the suburbs are outvoted and stuck with trash like this.

[SauronOfMordor]

And your credentials as an expert on the subject are....? Woody. P.S. Yes, I am an expert on engineering so I need to establish your credentials so I know if we can have an intelligent conversation or not.

Glad to hear you're an engineering expert, although you don't mention which area of engineering or what your degree is. My major was electrical engineering, but we all did have to study mechanical engineering and strength of materials as part of the core curriculum.

Do I have a PhD in Kevlar penetration dynamics? No. But I HAVE been keeping track of various aspects of bullet dynamics for the past 15 years. Plus a friend of mine does penetration research for MagSafe, and I listen attentively to what he has to say.

Getting back onto the subject, high velocity does a better job of penetrating kevlar than high mass. If you take a look at the NIJ ratings for body armor, you will notice that a 158 grain .38 special is stopped by a Level I vest, a 124 grain 9mm (about same diameter as .38) at 1175 ft/sec needs a level II vest to stop it, 9mm at 1200 ft/sec needs Level III-A, and a 62 grain .223 at 3050 ft/sec needs Level IIIa

[SauronOfMordor]

correction: .223 needs Level III (a higher level than IIIa)

[CCWoody]

Getting back onto the subject, high velocity does a better job of penetrating kevlar than high mass. ~ SOM

So, your original statement was not entirely correct. The real question is, and we could banter around for some time about it, has somebody already done testing on this new round to see its actual performance against body armor? And is this data available for the various commercial loads against the different body armor types?

I'll leave you wondering why I was so specific in naming type 2 body armor. You see, the media is only concerned with if they can make the gun look bad. And finding a single scenario where you can claim that a certain body armor is penetrated is enough for them.

Woody.

[SauronOfMordor]

Doing a bit of looking, the .500 S&W 440 grain has a muzzle velocity of 1625fps and energy of 2580ft-lbs. This is about the same bullet weight as a shotgun slug, about the same diameter, and somewhat lower velocity. I would therefore reasonably expect it to have penetration characteristics that will not quite be as high as a shotgun slug, but better than a .44 Mag (it has both higher mass and higher velocity than a .44).

So, yes you're right. It can reasonably be expected to penetrate whatever a .44 Mag does (including level II), but not necessarily what a shotgun slug will (Level III)

[TFMcGuire]

Hi,

Smith did a turnaround.

They are back in American hands.

They have backed out of all the yellow, turncoat deals they made with the Clinton administration and big-city mayors that they could.

They are back on the ramparts (Or Skirmish line) with the rest of U.S. gun manufacturers.

It's the real Smith and Wesson again.

Regards.

[TFMcGuire]

Don't give the 'rat barsteds any ideas, CC.

[ServesURight]

Is this the same Danny Davis who used to officiate wrestling in the old WWF? LOL

[CCWoody]

Doing a bit of looking, the .500 S&W 440 grain has a muzzle velocity of 1625fps and energy of 2580ft-lbs. ~ SOM

Doesn't that just make you want to go out and touch one off in your hand, knowing that it will be like handling a nice 12ga round with one hand. Yikes!

But, getting back to a serious examination of the physics of the situation, you are correct (from your first post) that the energy is 1/2mV2. But, all this does is establish the energy. By itself, it doesn't help you to figure out the penetration characteristics of the bullet. In order to figure that out, you need to understand the body armor's ability to absorb that energy. So, you also will need to know the area of the energy application on the body armor and the "strength" if you will of the body armor itself (its unit area ability withstand that energy). Additionally, certain bullets will deform upon impact (like HP's) and lose energy that way. So, suddenly, our equations have become a lot more complicated. And we haven't fully modeled this thing yet.

By way of example, I can withstand the full 2580ft/lb of energy of this bad boy without any body armor at all, if I am able to distribute the energy over a large enough area. Now, you may knock me down, and I may have to open up a 55gal drum of ass whup on ya afterwards, but we will both survive. ;-) Of course, if I apply this energy over the surface area of a quarter inch (what my .270 will do) then I will turn your insides into bloody jelly.

So, to conclude, I may have misled you by equating my .270 and the 50 S&W for their energy and ability to penetrate type II, but your equation was overly simplistic. Thus, I wanted to know that I wasn't going to have a physics discussion with somebody who has no more skill than to cite simple physics equations.

Woody.

BSEE the best of the best of the best.

[CCWoody]

Don't give the 'rat barsteds any ideas, CC. ~ TFMcGuire

Actually, getting type II penetration really isn't a big deal anymore. I carry a .45 and for a short while after 911, I carried some stuff that would shred type II in the bottom 10 of each of my clips. The issue here is that the rats wouldn't bother going after a 100 year old gun like my 1911. They would much rather flame the public with this horrible new gun that will defeat body armor (they probably wouldn't even mention that this is type II we are discussing).

Woody.

P.S. I'll try not to give 'em any more ideas.

[SauronOfMordor]

But, getting back to a serious examination of the physics of the situation, you are correct (from your first post) that the energy is 1/2mV2. But, all this does is establish the energy. By itself, it doesn't help you to figure out the penetration characteristics of the bullet.

Exactly. A bullet with a large cross-section will have its energy absorbed by a larger number of kevlar fibers. A .38 bullet will be stopped by a Level II vest, while a sharp icepick driven by just human muscle will penetrate. So, mass being equal, a higher cross-sectional density will produce better penetration. A pointed bullet which does not deform much at impact (like a hard armor-piercing bullet) will penetrate best

The thing which started this chain was my speculation that a .223 FMJ bullet in a sabot fired from a .500 S&W would have even better penetration than a .500 bullet. For example one gentleman reports putting a 90 grain bullet in a sabot, and seeing a velocity of 4,600 feet/second out of a .454 Casull (which normally fires something like 300 grains at 1625 f/s). Doing the math, 90 grains at 4600 has 3.3 times the kinetic energy of 300 grains at 1625 f/s. From the weight, I'm assuming he used a 9mm, which would have a cross-section 61% of the .454 bullet, which should further increase its penetration ability.

If the above example was any indication, a saboted .223 AP round coming out of a .500 S&W should come out at some absurd velocity (The rifling probably wouldn't be enough to properly stabilize it for long distance shooting, though).

[CCWoody]

Or, you could just buy some of these: www.rbcd.net

[thegiz]

I want one. I loved it when Clint would give his speech about the .55. This is an awesome weapon. I bet it has some kick to it.