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The "Threat" of Creationism, by Isaac Asimov
Internet ^ | 1984 | Isaac Asimov

Posted on 02/15/2003 4:18:25 PM PST by PatrickHenry

Scientists thought it was settled. The universe, they had decided, is about 20 billion years old, and Earth itself is 4.5 billion years old. Simple forms of life came into being more than three billion years ago, having formed spontaneously from nonliving matter. They grew more complex through slow evolutionary processes and the first hominid ancestors of humanity appeared more than four million years ago. Homo sapians itself—the present human species, people like you and me—has walked the earth for at least 50,000 years.

But apparently it isn't settled. There are Americans who believe that the earth is only about 6,000 years old; that human beings and all other species were brought into existence by a divine Creator as eternally separate variations of beings; and that there has been no evolutionary process.

They are creationists—they call themselves "scientific" creationists—and they are a growing power in the land, demanding that schools be forced to teach their views. State legislatures, mindful of the votes, are beginning to succumb to the pressure. In perhaps 15 states, bills have been introduced, putting forth the creationist point of view, and in others, strong movements are gaining momentum. In Arkansas, a law requiring that the teaching of creationism receive equal time was passed this spring and is scheduled to go into effect in September 1982, though the American Civil Liberties Union has filed suit on behalf of a group of clergymen, teachers, and parents to overturn it. And a California father named Kelly Segraves, the director of the Creation-Science Research Center, sued to have public-school science classes taught that there are other theories of creation besides evolution, and that one of them was the Biblical version. The suit came to trial in March, and the judge ruled that educators must distribute a policy statement to schools and textbook publishers explaining that the theory of evolution should not be seen as "the ultimate cause of origins." Even in New York, the Board of Education has delayed since January in making a final decision, expected this month [June 1981], on whether schools will be required to include the teaching of creationism in their curriculums.

The Rev. Jerry Fallwell, the head of the Moral Majority, who supports the creationist view from his television pulpit, claims that he has 17 million to 25 million viewers (though Arbitron places the figure at a much more modest 1.6 million). But there are 66 electronic ministries which have a total audience of about 20 million. And in parts of the country where the Fundamentalists predominate—the so called Bible Belt— creationists are in the majority.

They make up a fervid and dedicated group, convinced beyond argument of both their rightness and their righteousness. Faced with an apathetic and falsely secure majority, smaller groups have used intense pressure and forceful campaigning—as the creationists do—and have succeeded in disrupting and taking over whole societies.

Yet, though creationists seem to accept the literal truth of the Biblical story of creation, this does not mean that all religious people are creationists. There are millions of Catholics, Protestants, and Jews who think of the Bible as a source of spiritual truth and accept much of it as symbolically rather than literally true. They do not consider the Bible to be a textbook of science, even in intent, and have no problem teaching evolution in their secular institutions.

To those who are trained in science, creationism seems like a bad dream, a sudden reveling of a nightmare, a renewed march of an army of the night risen to challenge free thought and enlightenment.

The scientific evidence for the age of the earth and for the evolutionary development of life seems overwhelming to scientists. How can anyone question it? What are the arguments the creationists use? What is the "science" that makes their views "scientific"? Here are some of them:

• The argument from analogy.

A watch implies a watchmaker, say the creationists. If you were to find a beautifully intricate watch in the desert, from habitation, you would be sure that it had been fashioned by human hands and somehow left it there. It would pass the bounds of credibility that it had simply formed, spontaneously, from the sands of the desert.

By analogy, then, if you consider humanity, life, Earth, and the universe, all infinitely more intricate than a watch, you can believe far less easily that it "just happened." It, too, like the watch, must have been fashioned, but by more-than-human hands—in short by a divine Creator.

This argument seems unanswerable, and it has been used (even though not often explicitly expressed) ever since the dawn of consciousness. To have explained to prescientific human beings that the wind and the rain and the sun follow the laws of nature and do so blindly and without a guiding would have been utterly unconvincing to them. In fact, it might have well gotten you stoned to death as a blasphemer.

There are many aspects of the universe that still cannot be explained satisfactorily by science; but ignorance only implies ignorance that may someday be conquered. To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today.

In short, the complexity of the universe—and one's inability to explain it in full—is not in itself an argument for a Creator.

• The argument from general consent.

Some creationists point at that belief in a Creator is general among all peoples and all cultures. Surly this unanimous craving hints at a greater truth. There would be no unanimous belief in a lie.

General belief, however, is not really surprising. Nearly every people on earth that considers the existence of the world assumes it to have been created by a god or gods. And each group invents full details for the story. No two creation tales are alike. The Greeks, the Norsemen, the Japanese, the Hindus, the American Indians, and so on and so on all have their own creation myths, and all of these are recognized by Americans of Judeo-Christian heritage as "just myths."

The ancient Hebrews also had a creation tale—two of them, in fact. There is a primitive Adam-and-Eve-in-Paradise story, with man created first, then animals, then women. There is also a poetic tale of God fashioning the universe in six days, with animals preceding man, and man and woman created together.

These Hebrew myths are not inherently more credible than any of the others, but they are our myths. General consent, of course, proves nothing: There can be a unanimous belief in something that isn't so. The universal opinion over thousands of years that the earth was flat never flattened its spherical shape by one inch.

• The argument of belittlement.

Creationists frequently stress the fact that evolution is "only a theory," giving the impression that a theory is an idle guess. A scientist, one gathers, arising one morning with nothing particular to do, decided that perhaps the moon is made of Roquefort cheese and instantly advances the Roquefort-cheese theory.

A theory (as the word is used by scientists) is a detailed description of some facet of the universe's workings that is based on long observation and, where possible, experiment. It is the result of careful reasoning from these observations and experiments that has survived the critical study of scientists generally.

For example, we have the description of the cellular nature of living organisms (the "cell theory"); of objects attracting each other according to fixed rule (the "theory of gravitation"); of energy behaving in discrete bits (the "quantum theory"); of light traveling through a vacuum at a fixed measurable velocity (the "theory of relativity"), and so on.

All are theories; all are firmly founded; all are accepted as valid descriptions of this or that aspect of the universe. They are neither guesses nor speculations. And no theory is better founded, more closely examined, more critically argued and more thoroughly accepted, than the theory of evolution. If it is "only" a theory, that is all it has to be.

Creationism, on the other hand, is not a theory. There is no evidence, in the scientific sense, that supports it. Creationism, or at least the particular variety accepted by many Americans, is an expression of early Middle Eastern legend. It is fairly described as "only a myth."

• The argument of imperfection.

Creationists, in recent years, have stressed the "scientific" background of their beliefs. They point out that there are scientists who base their creationists beliefs on a careful study of geology, paleontology, and biology and produce "textbooks" that embody those beliefs.

Virtually the whole scientific corpus of creationism, however, consists of the pointing out of imperfections in the evolutionary view. The creationists insists, for example, that evolutionists cannot true transition states between species in the fossil evidence; that age determinations through radioactive breakdown are uncertain; that alternative interpretations of this or that piece of evidence are possible and so on.

Because the evolutionary view is not perfect and is not agreed upon by all scientists, creationists argue that evolution is false and that scientists, in supporting evolution, are basing their views on blind faith and dogmatism.

To an extent, the creationists are right here: The details of evolution are not perfectly known. Scientists have been adjusting and modifying Charles Darwin's suggestions since he advanced his theory of the origin of species through natural selection back in 1859. After all, much has been learned about the fossil record and physiology, microbiology, biochemistry, ethology, and various other branches of life science in the last 125 years, and it was to be expected that we can improve on Darwin. In fact, we have improved on him. Nor is the process finished. it can never be, as long as human beings continue to question and to strive for better answers.

The details of evolutionary theory are in dispute precisely because scientists are not devotees of blind faith and dogmatism. They do not accept even as great thinker as Darwin without question, nor do they accept any idea, new or old, without thorough argument. Even after accepting an idea, they stand ready to overrule it, if appropriate new evidence arrives. If, however, we grant that a theory is imperfect and details remain in dispute, does that disprove the theory as a whole?

Consider. I drive a car, and you drive a car. I do not know exactly how an engine works. Perhaps you do not either. And it may be that our hazy and approximate ideas of the workings of an automobile are in conflict. Must we then conclude from this disagreement that an automobile does not run, or that it does not exist? Or, if our senses force us to conclude that an automobile does exist and run, does that mean it is pulled by an invisible horses, since our engine theory is imperfect?

However much scientists argue their differing beliefs in details of evolutionary theory, or in the interpretation of the necessarily imperfect fossil record, they firmly accept the evolutionary process itself.

• The argument from distorted science.

Creationists have learned enough scientific terminology to use it in their attempts to disprove evolution. They do this in numerous ways, but the most common example, at least in the mail I receive is the repeated assertion that the second law of thermodynamics demonstrates the evolutionary process to be impossible.

In kindergarten terms, the second law of thermodynamics says that all spontaneous change is in the direction of increasing disorder—that is, in a "downhill" direction. There can be no spontaneous buildup of the complex from the simple, therefore, because that would be moving "uphill." According to the creationists argument, since, by the evolutionary process, complex forms of life evolve from simple forms, that process defies the second law, so creationism must be true.

Such an argument implies that this clearly visible fallacy is somehow invisible to scientists, who must therefore be flying in the face of the second law through sheer perversity. Scientists, however, do know about the second law and they are not blind. It's just that an argument based on kindergarten terms is suitable only for kindergartens.

To lift the argument a notch above the kindergarten level, the second law of thermodynamics applies to a "closed system"—that is, to a system that does not gain energy from without, or lose energy to the outside. The only truly closed system we know of is the universe as a whole.

Within a closed system, there are subsystems that can gain complexity spontaneously, provided there is a greater loss of complexity in another interlocking subsystem. The overall change then is a complexity loss in a line with the dictates of the second law.

Evolution can proceed and build up the complex from the simple, thus moving uphill, without violating the second law, as long as another interlocking part of the system — the sun, which delivers energy to the earth continually — moves downhill (as it does) at a much faster rate than evolution moves uphill. If the sun were to cease shining, evolution would stop and so, eventually, would life.

Unfortunately, the second law is a subtle concept which most people are not accustomed to dealing with, and it is not easy to see the fallacy in the creationists distortion.

There are many other "scientific" arguments used by creationists, some taking quite cleaver advantage of present areas of dispute in evolutionary theory, but every one of then is as disingenuous as the second-law argument.

The "scientific" arguments are organized into special creationist textbooks, which have all the surface appearance of the real thing, and which school systems are being heavily pressured to accept. They are written by people who have not made any mark as scientists, and, while they discuss geology, paleontology and biology with correct scientific terminology, they are devoted almost entirely to raising doubts over the legitimacy of the evidence and reasoning underlying evolutionary thinking on the assumption that this leaves creationism as the only possible alternative.

Evidence actually in favor of creationism is not presented, of course, because none exist other than the word of the Bible, which it is current creationist strategy not to use.

• The argument from irrelevance.

Some creationists putt all matters of scientific evidence to one side and consider all such things irrelevant. The Creator, they say, brought life and the earth and the entire universe into being 6,000 years ago or so, complete with all the evidence for eons-long evolutionary development. The fossil record, the decaying radio activity, the receding galaxies were all created as they are, and the evidence they present is an illusion.

Of course, this argument is itself irrelevant, for it can be neither proved nor disproved. it is not an argument, actually, but a statement. I can say that the entire universe was created two minutes age, complete with all its history books describing a nonexistent past in detail, and with every living person equipped with a full memory; you, for instance, in the process of reading this article in midstream with a memory of what you had read in the beginning—which you had not really read.

What kind of Creator would produce a universe containing so intricate an illusion? It would mean that the Creator formed a universe that contained human beings whom He had endowed with the faculty of curiosity and the ability to reason. He supplied those human beings with an enormous amount of subtle and cleverly consistent evidence designed to mislead them and cause them to be convinced that the universe was created 20 billion years ago and developed by evolutionary processes that include the creation and the development of life on Earth. Why?

Does the Creator take pleasure in fooling us? Does it amuse Him to watch us go wrong? Is it part of a test to see if human beings will deny their senses and their reason in order to cling to myth? Can it be that the Creator is a cruel and malicious prankster, with a vicious and adolescent sense of humor?

• The argument from authority.

The Bible says that God created the world in six days, and the Bible is the inspired word of God. To the average creationist this is all that counts. All other arguments are merely a tedious way of countering the propaganda of all those wicked humanists, agnostics, an atheists who are not satisfied with the clear word of the Lord.

The creationist leaders do not actually use that argument because that would make their argument a religious one, and they would not be able to use it in fighting a secular school system. They have to borrow the clothing of science, no matter how badly it fits, and call themselves "scientific" creationists. They also speak only of the "Creator," and never mentioned that this Creator is the God of the Bible.

We cannot, however, take this sheep's clothing seriously. However much the creationist leaders might hammer away at in their "scientific" and "philosophical" points, they would be helpless and a laughing-stock if that were all they had.

It is religion that recruits their squadrons. Tens of millions of Americans, who neither know nor understand the actual arguments for or even against evolution, march in the army of the night with their Bibles held high. And they are a strong and frightening force, impervious to, and immunized against, the feeble lance of mere reason.

Even if I am right and the evolutionists' case is very strong, have not creationists, whatever the emptiness of their case, a right to be heard? if their case is empty, isn't it perfectly safe to discuss it since the emptiness would then be apparent? Why, then are evolutionists so reluctant to have creationism taught in the public schools on an equal basis with evolutionary theory? can it be that the evolutionists are not as confident of their case as they pretend. Are they afraid to allow youngsters a clear choice?

First, the creationists are somewhat less than honest in their demand for equal time. It is not their views that are repressed: schools are by no means the only place in which the dispute between creationism and evolutionary theory is played out. There are churches, for instance, which are a much more serious influence on most Americans than the schools are. To be sure, many churches are quite liberal, have made their peace with science and find it easy to live with scientific advance — even with evolution. But many of the less modish and citified churches are bastions of creationism.

The influence of the church is naturally felt in the home, in the newspapers, and in all of surrounding society. It makes itself felt in the nation as a whole, even in religiously liberal areas, in thousands of subtle ways: in the nature of holiday observance, in expressions of patriotic fervor, even in total irrelevancies. In 1968, for example, a team of astronomers circling the moon were instructed to read the first few verses of Genesis as though NASA felt it had to placate the public lest they rage against the violation of the firmament. At the present time, even the current President of the United States has expressed his creationist sympathies.

It is only in school that American youngsters in general are ever likely to hear any reasoned exposition of the evolutionary viewpiont. They might find such a viewpoint in books, magazines, newspapers, or even, on occasion, on television. But church and family can easily censor printed matter or television. Only the school is beyond their control.

But only just barely beyond. Even though schools are now allowed to teach evolution, teachers are beginning to be apologetic about it, knowing full well their jobs are at the mercy of school boards upon which creationists are a stronger and stronger influence.

Then, too, in schools, students are not required to believe what they learn about evolution—merely to parrot it back on test. If they fail to do so, their punishment is nothing more than the loss of a few points on a test or two.

In the creationist churches, however, the congregation is required to believe. Impressionable youngsters, taught that they will go to hell if they listen to the evolutionary doctrine, are not likely to listen in comfort or to believe if they do. Therefore, creationists, who control the church and the society they live in and to face the public-school as the only place where evolution is even briefly mentioned in a possible favorable way, find they cannot stand even so minuscule a competition and demand "equal time."

Do you suppose their devotion to "fairness" is such that they will give equal time to evolution in their churches?

Second, the real danger is the manner in which creationists want threir "equal time." In the scientific world, there is free and open competition of ideas, and even a scientist whose suggestions are not accepted is nevertheless free to continue to argue his case. In this free and open competition of ideas, creationism has clearly lost. It has been losing, in fact, since the time of Copernicus four and a half centuries ago. But creationism, placing myth above reason, refused to accept the decision and are now calling on the government to force their views on the schools in lieu of the free expression of ideas. Teachers must be forced to present creationism as though it had equal intellectual respectability with evolutionary doctrine.

What a precedent this sets.

If the government can mobilize its policemen and its prisons to make certain that teachers give creationism equal time, they can next use force to make sure that teachers declare creationism the victor so that evolution will be evicted from the classroom altogether. We will have established ground work, in other words, for legally enforced ignorance and for totalitarian thought control. And what if the creationists win? They might, you know, for there are millions who, faced with a choice between science and their interpretation of the Bible, will choose the Bible and reject science, regardless of the evidence.

This is not entirely because of the traditional and unthinking reverence for the literal words of the Bible; there is also a pervasive uneasiness—even an actual fear—of science that will drive even those who care little for fundamentalism into the arms of the creationists. For one thing, science is uncertain. Theories are subject to revision; observations are open to a variety of interpretations, and scientists quarrel among themselves. This is disillusioning for those untrained in the scientific method, who thus turn to the rigid certainty of the Bible instead. There is something comfortable about a view that allows for no deviation and that spares you the painful necessity of having to think.

Second, science is complex and chilling. The mathematical language of science is understood by very few. The vistas it presents are scary—an enormous universe ruled by chance and impersonal rules, empty and uncaring, ungraspable and vertiginous. How comfortable to turn instead to a small world, only a few thousand years old, and under God's personal and immediate care; a world in which you are his particular concern and where He will not consign you to hell if you are careful to follow every word of the Bible as interpreted for you by your television preacher.

Third, science is dangerous. There is no question but that poison gas, genetic engineering, and nuclear weapons and power stations are terrifying. It may be that civilization is falling apart and the world we know is coming to an end. In that case, why not turn to religion and look forward to the Day of Judgment, in which you and your fellow believers will be lifted into eternal bliss and have the added joy of watching the scoffers and disbelievers writhe forever in torment.

So why might they not win?

There are numerous cases of societies in which the armies of the night have ridden triumphantly over minorities in order to establish a powerful orthodoxy which dictates official thought. Invariably, the triumphant ride is toward long-range disaster. Spain dominated Europe and the world in the 16th century, but in Spain orthodoxy came first, and all divergence of opinion was ruthlessly suppressed. The result was that Spain settled back into blankness and did not share in the scientific, technological and commercial ferment that bubbled up in other nations of Western Europe. Spain remained an intellectual backwater for centuries. In the late 17th century, France in the name of orthodoxy revoked the Edict of Nantes and drove out many thousands of Huguenots, who added their intellectual vigor to lands of refuge such as Great Britain, the Netherlands, and Prussia, while France was permanently weakened.

In more recent times, Germany hounded out the Jewish scientists of Europe. They arrived in the United States and contributed immeasurably to scientific advancement here, while Germany lost so heavily that there is no telling how long it will take it to regain its former scientific eminence. The Soviet Union, in its fascination with Lysenko, destroyed its geneticists, and set back its biological sciences for decades. China, during the Cultural Revolution, turned against Western science and is still laboring to overcome the devastation that resulted.

As we now, with all these examples before us, to ride backward into the past under the same tattered banner of orthodoxy? With creationism in the saddle, American science will wither. We will raise a generation of ignoramuses ill-equipped to run the industry of tomorrow, much less to generate the new advances of the days after tomorrow.

We will inevitably recede into the backwater of civilization, and those nations that retain opened scientific thought will take over the leadership of the world and the cutting edge of human advancement. I don't suppose that the creationists really plan the decline of the United States, but their loudly expressed patriotism is as simpleminded as their "science." If they succeed, they will, in their folly, achieve the opposite of what they say they wish.

( Isaac Asimov, "The 'Threat' of Creationism," New York Times Magazine, June 14, 1981; from Science and Creationism, Ashley Montagu, ed., New York: Oxford University Press, 1984, pp. 182-193. )


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: creation; creationism; crevolist; darwin; evolution; evolutionism; intelligentdesign
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To: unspun
The story was told here, unspun:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/backroom/804648/posts?page=4578#4578

Sorry it goes on so long. I'd be interested in your thoughts.



781 posted on 02/21/2003 10:29:33 AM PST by betty boop
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To: All; betty boop
Apologies for the "color commentary" added to bb's self-standing prose, but...

Do we really have a warrant to suppose that brain and consciousness really are the same thing, when one (brain, whose functioning is captured on the EEG tape) cannot even explain the other which is said to be identical to it?

The most intellectual pleasing sentence I've read in quite awhile. Good to "save."

These are the problems. I?ve tried to demonstrate that consciousness is not a continuum, that it is something that is qualitatively different from the physical brain that it is, in fact, a thing in itself. That it has a kind of autonomy (as the process of silencing the thought stream shows). This kind of autonomy is not something the brain has. For if the brain were to cease its activity, we would simply be dead, real soon.

An quick analysis of strata at least as important as geological strata.

Just a note in passing, I read the essay that PatrickHenry directed me to. I'm running over long here, so just a quick note: Somehow, the author moved blithely from his subtitle, which said IF, to the body of his argument, which turned IF into IS. IF was a proposition that had not been validated; yet the discussion assumed it had a pre-analytical notion has, in this case, been turned into the major premise of the following argument. (There's a certain dishonesty in such operations, IMO.) What we ended up with were the qualia descriptions of conscious states of thinking and feeling that human beings are said to typically have.

Describes an unconfessed leap that is epidemic among theoriticians as they cross boundaries. It can be a leap from validity of method to invalidity, or from propositional reason to unreasonablness. It is often an unconfessed leap (listen, any who have a strong desire for objectivity) from empirical knowledge to doctrinal belief. It can come by direct assault or by inadvertently rising like bread dough past the level of a theory-set's epistemological incompetence, but it sure comes --from any human quarter.

May I note here that these qualia descriptions of experiences consisting of words -- are directly analogous to the EEG tape recording the hypothetical brain activity of the above thought experiment? For they can tell us nothing about what consciousness is, or what my conscious experience was like for me. Qualia just look to me like yet another attempt to grind down the authority of human subjective experience, to reduce it to the level where it can be handled in terms of symbols that must forever remain distinct from actual experience itself. They represent a retreat from Reality, not an explanation of real things. JMHO FWIW

A matter of human self-pride, including the defense-mechanism that Ms. b previously alluded to.

782 posted on 02/21/2003 11:06:54 AM PST by unspun (I like FreeRepublic.com! It helps me spell words I don't often write.)
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To: unspun
- A matter of human self-pride, including the defense-mechanism that Ms. b previously alluded to. -

Oops - maybe I should have left that to inference. `->
783 posted on 02/21/2003 11:27:05 AM PST by unspun (I like FreeRepublic.com! It helps me spell words I don't often write.)
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To: edsheppa
How? A "theory" that doesn't exclude any possibility is not scientific.

I'm saying it would be possible to put forward a theory of creation / intelligent design that included God AND was falsifiable.

That's obviously true.

Just as the Bible as literal history ala Bishop Usher is easily falsifiable, scientifically.

I see no reason why another gazillion theories, including God, couldn't be formulated. I see no prima facie reason why one of them couldn't be true.

784 posted on 02/21/2003 11:31:26 AM PST by jimt
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To: unspun; PatrickHenry
It is often an unconfessed leap (listen, any who have a strong desire for objectivity) from empirical knowledge to doctrinal belief....

IMHO, what we have here at bottom, unspun, is a quite serious epistemological problem. Pop! goes the fallacy.... I gather that is where "Pop Science" comes from.

Thank you for your kind words -- and for your perceptive posts.

785 posted on 02/21/2003 3:50:11 PM PST by betty boop
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To: Alamo-Girl
This approach has the potential to show coherent mechanisms for these experiences (as opposed to pathology caused by biological deterioration), encouraging further exploration to gain an understanding of their role in human existence.

Certainly we need to have some kind of description of what is a "healthy psyche" before we can deal with pathological states. Still, I imagine there must be limits to what a "second-hand," after-the-fact read out of brain activity can tell us about what is really going on in the brain, and how consciousness fits into the brain picture.

We really are dealing with a mystery here, IMHO. But I imagine we humans will get to the bottom of it, in due course! I think Walker is right: We can't abandon the scientific approach to the solution of these problems, for in this case, philosophy's tools really aren't sharp enough for the kind of precision we need -- yet perhaps can afford some useful insights about the direction in which science ought to go.... :^)

Thanks so much for writing, A-G! Hugs girl!

786 posted on 02/21/2003 4:02:18 PM PST by betty boop
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To: jimt
Just as the Bible as literal history ala Bishop Usher is easily falsifiable, scientifically.

But that's a history, not a theory. For a set of statements to be a theory it must no only account for past experiences but also establish constraints on future ones. I think the general conception is of God as an unconstrained being and I don't see how such a being can be encompassed in a scientific theory.

787 posted on 02/21/2003 4:36:23 PM PST by edsheppa
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To: PatrickHenry
Placemarker.
788 posted on 02/21/2003 6:20:06 PM PST by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas)
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To: Alamo-Girl
Paid a visit to your hyperlinked site just now.

Amazing, Alamo-Girl. Bookmarked.

Thank you so much.

789 posted on 02/21/2003 7:23:39 PM PST by betty boop
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To: PatrickHenry
...so you can see where the "mainstream" is trending. It's obviously very far from the final word....

Obviously. It never had any chance of being admitted in any serious public venue in the first place, for sheer lack of grounds of serious intellectual and/or public merit and/or standing.

Until our pal Antonio Gramsci came along and pissed all over Western Civilization, it would never have occurred to anyone I know (shades of Pauline Kael here....) to imagine that such a teensy minority could wreak so much public havoc; i.e., on the majoritarian scale.

I'm talking about the ideologies that set up the enormities of 20th-century warfare here. Tens of millions of our fellow human beings died.

Some say the final mortality toll numbers in the hundreds of millions, inclusive, reflecting the "contributions" of all those 20th-century potentates -- atheists every last darned one of them, to make an explicit point intended for public scrutiny -- who couldn't figure out a better use for power than to slay their enemies. Such bright boys.

Which ought to clue in experienced, rational adults that whatever motivated this carnage, "We don't want it here where we (I) live."

Time for bed. Good night, PH. Thank you and sweet dreams....

p.s.: PH, personally, I have always found you fair-minded and gracious in every way. FWIW

790 posted on 02/21/2003 8:03:30 PM PST by betty boop
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To: betty boop
Thank you so very much for your posts and for the encouragements! I'm glad you found the Psyche link helpful. It is one of my favorites.

The prior link actually takes a position that sounds a lot like my "the brain is a transmitter/receiver for the spirit" view. To follow the analogy, an alien could learn a lot about a transmitter/receiver but unless he knew to study the radio waves, he might falsely assume it was all happening inside the box. LOL!

791 posted on 02/21/2003 8:08:12 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: betty boop
... fair-minded and gracious ...

Yeowie! I'm gonna save this one for sure. Compliements are so rare around here that it's stunning to actually receive one. Thank you, BB. I feel the same about you.

792 posted on 02/22/2003 3:41:49 AM PST by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas)
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To: betty boop; Alamo-Girl
Walker is right: We can't abandon the scientific approach to the solution of these problems, for in this case, philosophy's tools really aren't sharp enough for the kind of precision we need ...

I've read Walker now twice and I'm sure there will be a third time. There are several aspects of it that suggest it will withstand the "test of time".

The Physics of Consciousness is, or at least attempts to be, rigorous mathematically. Consciousness is found to be (or assumed to be, if you wish) fundamental, a non-material force or aspect of reality that expresses at the very foundation of physical reality, in state vector collapse. It is involved in the very "production" of physicality.

Walker goes on to explore the emergence or advent of human consciousness and gives us a quantum mechanical explanation that ties to aspects of consciousness that can be measured. Quite a feat. This latter focus may obscure the fact that Walker's math assumes or establishes that consciousness is universal, a fundamental agent in the production of physical reality. I don't think Walker is blind to this but there was only so much he could explore in one book.

A third comment would be that Walker at least implicitly acknowledges the link between beauty and truth. I liked this, personally, a lot, having been convinced for some while that this link is quite real.

Plato and Jesus and Buddha have, I believe, found a friend in Walker. Perhaps now this long retreat from the 19th Century tsunami of Materialism can begin to be reversed.

793 posted on 02/22/2003 6:11:19 AM PST by Phaedrus
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Comment #794 Removed by Moderator

To: Operation Desoto
Would you agree that one should think about this stuff before they write about it?
795 posted on 02/22/2003 8:44:07 AM PST by Phaedrus
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To: Phaedrus; betty boop; js1138; desertcry
Thank you so much for your post, Phaedrus!

Plato and Jesus and Buddha have, I believe, found a friend in Walker. Perhaps now this long retreat from the 19th Century tsunami of Materialism can begin to be reversed.

I agree. You and betty boop have really gotten me interested in The Physics of Consciousness so I'm do what research I can on the internet to prepare myself for the book.

As you know my particular curiosity is harmonics (waves, resonance) which I believe is the mechanism of the algorithm of inception:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. – John 1:1

By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. – Psalms 33:6

In the process of searching the background, I’ve found a few articles all of you might find interesting:

In this article, Ralph H. Abraham, Professor of Mathematics at the University of California at Santa Cruz since 1968 and much published author in the fields of dynamics and chaos (and evidently avid Buddhist) – “proposes a model in which communication and action are extended both into the past and into the future. The chief feature of this model is its duality, manifest in a pair of parallel space-time worlds. Interaction between these worlds – consciousness – is effected through a moving window, through which influences pass by a process of resonance.” IOW, the article shows how the phenomenon of seeing into the past and future could be:

A Two Worlds Model for Consciousness (pdf)

In this article, Alex Kaivarainen of the University of Turku Finland who is also much published Home page, gets down to the nitty-grit of the biomolecular mechanism of consciousness: “Hierarchic Model of Consciousness, proposed in this work, is based on Hierarchic Theory of Matter and Field, developed by the author, its application to properties of water in microtubules (MT) and distant exchange electromagnetic interaction between MT.” His model sounds curiously close to Roger Penrose's - but I haven't gone down that research path yet to confirm if it is so.

Hierarchical Model of Consciousness: From Molecular Bose Condensation to Synaptic Reorganization (pdf)

For those who are thinking “Jeepers, Kaivarainen's model sounds a lot like auras” – well, it does to me, too. So, if you're interested in that aspect, here’s a link to keep up with the research:

International Institute of Biophysics

Particular Strategies: Establish the specific characteristics of Ultralow Photon Emission from biological systems (biophotons) from a physical point of view by performing crucial experiments to demonstrate the non-linearity and the coherence of this radiation. Enhance the expertise and experience in order to carry out the understanding and the conceptualisation of the Ultralow Photon Emission. Examine the connection between the UPE's parameters and the parameters of electromagnetic fields active on living systems. Examine the connection between the parameters of UPE and biological parameters describing the state of living systems by combining IIB's resources with those of partners in other laboratories and universities. Expand the linkage between science and technology to enable new observational instruments that address critical scientific objectives and capture the benefits for commercial use through technology transfer. Publicise among the people the wonder of the science of life, and enhance biophysical education


796 posted on 02/22/2003 9:42:29 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
Thanks much for the heads up.
797 posted on 02/22/2003 10:29:03 AM PST by desertcry
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To: betty boop
the human brain is bombarded 24/7 by all species of electromagnetic radiation coming from the outside environment. There must be something in the way the mind works that filters out all this noise...

Yes there is. It's called magnetic transparency. It's the way a really good piece of window glass filters out the visible spectrum.

I would like you to ponder for a moment what goes on in an MRI scan (technically an NMRI). You have a superconducting electromagnet powerful enough to make the protons in the molecules of you brain jiggle in resonance. Yet it has no discernable effect on people's ability to think, nor on the content of their thought. Why is that? Because the brain is 99.999 percent free of magnetic materials. There might be a few isolated pockets of magnetic material that may or may not be sensitive to the earth's magnetic field, but I assure you that if the brain were a radio receiver it would explode like a hamster in a microwave during an MRI scan.

798 posted on 02/22/2003 12:05:58 PM PST by js1138
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To: 70times7
Regarding your comment of a few weeks ago..

Well, now, there's the difference between us. Evidently I wrote something you found memorable, but I didn't, because I haven't the foggiest what you're referring to here.

799 posted on 02/22/2003 12:19:09 PM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: balrog666
I take it you're against the 'English only' rule for matters divine, then?
800 posted on 02/22/2003 12:20:35 PM PST by Right Wing Professor
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