Posted on 02/14/2003 7:18:34 AM PST by Stand Watch Listen
Most conservatives and many other Americans would agree that a return to the values and ideas of the Founding Fathers of our Republic would be desirable.
But how much do they know about the religious views, for example, of our Founding Fathers?
The founders of our Republic were almost to a man Deists. What is Deism? It is essentially the belief that true religion must be viewed as natural not revealed. This means that the Bible must be viewed as the product of an earlier and much less enlightened age, with wisdom to impart to be sure, a good deal of wisdom, but wisdom tied to dogmatic nonsense, superstition, and a conception of G-d which does violence to the highest strivings of the human race.
Whether one considers Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, or the other Founders, one finds that they in varying degrees conformed outwardly to Christian religious requirements, mostly to show a good example to the lower orders, but inwardly they were considerably emancipated from a belief in an anthropomorphic G-d who rewarded and punished on the basis of odd dogmas which can neither be explained or proven. They did not think G-d required of the Jews the gift of their foreskins; they did not believe that food taboos made any sense. They did not think that the mysteries of divine grace, predestination, disputes over faith and works, dissertations about the real or the symbolic presence of the Saviour in the Eucharist, and all the rest were really necessary for good living and good citizenship. They respected the religious and cultural inheritance from their ancestors but strove to leave their posterity a more rational and more scientific understanding of life.
When they conformed to accepted beliefs it was usually in the spirit of Voltaire and Rousseau, whom they read seriously, and also of David Hume – understanding that the uneducated, the poor, and the hopeless needed traditional religion, its rituals, dogmas, and anathemas, in order to avoid crime and evil. But they hoped that with education traditional religion would become less and less necessary and would ultimately disappear. In this they were wrong.
Either education has not really spread very widely – perhaps because it has been debased in direct proportion to the number of people allowed to experience it – or it has been misdirected. In any case, the lower classes and much of the middle classes still hold to irrational beliefs about man, nature, and G-d. The hold of evangelical religion, the Bible, and the whole idea of Jesus needing to die to save men from their sins, are as strong as ever. People who don't understand a word of the Bible, know nothing about how it came to be written, by whom, and why, are still willing to regard any criticism of mindless belief as misguided. They still have the temerity to pray for those who do not share their misbeliefs, instead of slinking away into the dark corners of ignorance to ponder their unenlightened state and condition.
What would Franklin, Washington, and Jefferson think of Americans today? I am afraid they would wonder if the masses of mankind were not doomed to exist forever in ignorance and superstition, impervious to reason, to thought, to common sense itself. They would surely doubt that their sacrifices had been worth the trouble.
A conservative honors the past and seeks to learn from it. But he does not swallow it all without getting indigestion. Liberals regard the past as a mistake and seek instead something more rational. They will never find something more rational without understanding the limits of human nature. Therefore a conservative cannot be a democrat. But he can be a republican. He cannot be a Christian except in the way that the Founding Fathers were Christian – able to sort out the truth from the falsehood in thousands of years of G-dtalk. Liberals are often not Christians but there is nothing in Christianity which cannot be twisted to their purposes. What we need in America is not more Christians but more republicans.
They did not think that the mysteries of divine grace, predestination, disputes over faith and works, dissertations about the real or the symbolic presence of the Saviour in the Eucharist, and all the rest were really necessary for good living and good citizenship.
They are not necessary for good living OR good citizenship.
They help, but are not necessary
Either education has not really spread very widely
IMO, in America, there were two, maybe three, generations that actually widely educated.
Before that it was either too expensive or wasn't considered necessary.
After that it is indoctronation.
Therefore a conservative cannot be a democrat. But he can be a republican. He cannot be a Christian except in the way that the Founding Fathers were Christian – able to sort out the truth from the falsehood in thousands of years of G-dtalk.
This is where I disagree with the author completely.
A conservative CAN be a christian, in every sense of the word as we know it today.
What he cannot be is a religious fanatic.
Going no further than the first sentence I disagree strongly. The concept State's rights is dead to conservatives though they occassionally mouth support for it. Their loyalty is to the concept of nation and not to the ideals of liberty. The founders concept of free trade with all and entangling alliances with none is greeted with total contempt by today's conservatives. They wish to conserve the global power built since 1898 and have no use for the founders ideals on foriegn policy matters.
I will skip over the religious beliefs or non beliefs discussed here and focus on this - A conservative honors the past and seeks to learn from it. - Again I disagree. Conservatives only selectively honor the past and we learn nothing from experience. Just wave some flags, cite God in a few lines and put an (R) in front of a name and all is well.
As an independant conservative, I for one, think we'd do well to return to the philosophies of the Founding Fathers.
Scouts Out! Cavalry Ho!
"Conservatives" on this site regularly support all manner of things that the founders found repugnant.
On this site today, I see some embracing the Income tax, some embracing the minimum wage, smoking bans on private property, prohibition, and the list goes on.
Thank you, 4CJ, this "deists" nonsense is like the same old joke grampa told over, and over, and over, to where you know everyone has heard it fifteen thousand times, and it's still not funny {-P
Did he mean to say EMPIRE, or was that a Freudian slip? Perhaps he meant it not in the technical sense, but just to mean a ...well what did he mean?
What we need in America is revival.Only Jesus can change the hearts of men.
Exactly. A bunch of utter garbage that's thrown out there and stated as fact over and over, as if that's going to make it true. If it weren't so sad, it would be amusing to observe just how bothered so many people are by the notion of an Almighty God and the things they do and say to try to discredit Him. But in the end, sad is what it is, not amusing. These people are going to have an eternity to reflect upon their words. Abject horror that never ends.
MM
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The author went on to say that Jefferson was deist, claiming Jefferson was "emancipated from a belief in an anthropomorphic God who rewarded and punished on the basis of odd dogmas which can neither be explained or proven".
Jefferson wrote this regarding his belief (his belief in what Jesus taught):
The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man.
1. That there is one only God, and he all perfect.
2. That there is a future state of rewards and punishments.
3. That to love God with all thy heart and thy neighbor as thyself, is the sum of religion.
Jefferson believed there was one God. So did Jesus. Jesus said, "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God" (Matthew 19:17), and. ". . . Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord" (Mark 12:29). See also Mark 12:32-34.
Jefferson believed "That there is a future state of rewards and punishments." So did Jesus.
Jefferson believed that to love God with all thy heart and thy neighbor as thyself, is the sum of religion. Jesus said, "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets" (Matthew 7:12). Since the Law of the Lord is the same thing that Jefferson considered to be the sum of all religion, I believe Jefferson was correct.
I cannot explain the author's statements, except that maybe the author misunderstood Jefferson's frequent objections to Calvinistic doctrine. I have my own problems with Calvin, but that in no way implies that I do not believe every word of God. Like Jefferson, I place more faith in the commandment of the Lord than in the understanding of men. Or, as John said, "And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us" (1 John 3:23-24); and, "No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us." (1 John 4:12)
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