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The Case for Physics First
The Washington Post ^ | February 8, 2003 | ROB SNYDER

Posted on 02/08/2003 5:34:19 AM PST by Archangelsk

The Case for Physics First
Saturday, February 8, 2003; Page A20

A Feb. 4 letter suggested that physics should not be taught before chemistry and biology because it is more abstract. But a first course in physics is the least abstract of any first-year high school science course.

Rather than having to imagine processes at an atomic or molecular level, or to imagine what occurs in biological systems, students in first-year physics can collect and analyze physical data as they experiment with falling objects, colliding carts, light bulbs, mirrors, etc.

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: crevolist; physics
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To: Archangelsk
An interest in physics begins when a baby asks why the grass is green or the sky blue or notices a meteor in the night sky.

Should physics as a discipline be taught first before other sciences? No, it isn't necessary to do that. There is plenty of physics in other sciences of biology and chemistry these days. Besides, real physics can't be taught until the math is up to a practical level, and that doesn't happen until some amount of calculus has been learned.

It might be noted that many of the most important physicists and mathematicians in history weren't professional physicists or mathematicians, and some had no formal training in the subjects. Rodrigues was a banker, just one example. It seems those who will do physics and math will do so because they want to regardless of their school training. Hamilton had shown no interest in math until he found an error in a popular celestial mechanics book of the day that he had been reading for practice in a foreign language.

41 posted on 02/08/2003 11:49:46 AM PST by RightWhale
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To: RightWhale
"There is plenty of physics in other sciences of biology and chemistry these days"

Yes, and physics underlies all the other sciences.
Much of physics appears in chemsitry. In biology, energy flow and transfer involve core physics concepts.

But in simple mechanics (the pendulum) physics is more conceptually 'accessible' than in chemsitry or biology.
42 posted on 02/08/2003 11:59:35 AM PST by edwin hubble
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To: maxwell
I found the math to be more complimentary than essential.

Not surprising. Lower level physics classes are, basically, math classes. Math is key. You can do without physics for other sciences, but you can't do without math.

43 posted on 02/08/2003 1:31:33 PM PST by Nebullis
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To: edwin hubble
Yes, and physics underlies all the other sciences.

Not in an educational sense. Sure, physical laws underlie phenomena studied in other sciences. You don't need physics for genetics, for example; you need statistics.

44 posted on 02/08/2003 1:33:10 PM PST by Nebullis
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To: RightWhale
Should physics as a discipline be taught first before other sciences? No, it isn't necessary to do that.

If the students are being taught math, it'll suffice in place of physics. Chemistry, and more so biology, are much broader bodies of knowledge than physics and need an early start because of time limitations.

45 posted on 02/08/2003 1:46:35 PM PST by Nebullis
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To: Physicist
(For the Lurkerae): Chemistry and Biology differ from Physics in the questions that are asked. I had a friend who took one of the physics-for-poets courses (after she had calculus) and said that a lack of mathematical description made the course rather difficult. The questions that Physics asks tend to require more mathematical answers than those asked by Chemistry or Biology.
46 posted on 02/08/2003 10:57:59 PM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Going to war without France is like going deer-hunting without an accordion.)
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To: Youngblood
My God, what kind of education system do you have in the States?!

The Public Education Establishment seems to be along the following model:

The School Board andAdministration are Management.
The Teachers are the Workers.
The Students are the Product.

47 posted on 02/08/2003 11:00:57 PM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Going to war without France is like going deer-hunting without an accordion.)
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To: Archangelsk
I agree that it's inexcusable. However, I look at my kindergartener who is currently immersed in recognizing fractions and fraction theory (pies, sets of things, cut up balls) and I ask myself why we can't accelerate these skills. Since I believe math and physics are languages (albeit left brain languages) and language - vocabulary, syntax, ability - is built through practice why are we waiting to introduce math skills?

I don't know what they've done to math curriculum these days! My son is a 5th grader and is just now reducing fractions. Division wasn't taught until the end of 4th grade. It seems that they spent 1st-3rd exclusively on addition and subtraction.

But at the same time, it seems to me that instead of simply teaching addition, they are throwing all kinds of things into the mix. The kids get a little taste of algebra, measuring and word problems with each newly added concept. It sounds good, to have them exposed to these things, and yet I wonder if that is part of the problem? Are we throwing in all these fancy things and losing sight of the fact that they can't simply add all that well?

48 posted on 02/08/2003 11:29:53 PM PST by Dianna
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To: maxwell
Separation of Schodinger's equation in spherical coordinates was old hat to me by that time but the other kiddies would've much preferred going back to breathing benzene fumes.

My problem with HS chemistry was that it was never basic enough for me to get the point. My math was weak, but frankly, I don't remember doing much math at all. I struggled terribly for a C and never understood what I was doing.

I'm currently taking bone-head chemistry (18 years after HS chemistry) and it makes sense! I admit, the book sometimes has me totally perplexed, but I've got a great prof who makes things very clear. I used to be convinced that I was a math/science moron, but maybe my teachers just sucked?

49 posted on 02/08/2003 11:44:29 PM PST by Dianna
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To: Nebullis
Chemistry, and more so biology, are much broader bodies of knowledge than physics

Aw, hogwash...

Er, I mean, I respectfully disagree...

Chemistry is cooking. Bio is looking. Between and betwixt the two of 'em is alot of brute memorization. I think it was Rutherford who said something like "In all of science there is only physics; the rest is stamp-collecting." Physics forms the basis by which to study everything else-- laws, method, everything... If you don't have some notion about quantum mechanics, your understanding of sp3 to sp2 orbital transitions in carbon nitrides is limited. If you don't understand Maxwell's First Law of Electromagnetism, your understanding of Na+ transport across cell membranes is limited.

But then many folks don't give a flying rat's a$$ about Maxwell's first law, and I guess that's OK. It's impossible to understand every last piece of minutiae (sp?) related to your research... If folks wanna go through life not knowing Maxwell's first law I guess that's their business...

I like my idea of kids learning math and physics in the same class. I think it'd work pretty well. If I ever get hard-up enough that I got to teach high school to keep bagels on the table and beer in the fridge, I reckon I'll teach it that way.

50 posted on 02/09/2003 2:30:52 PM PST by maxwell (Well I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation...)
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To: Dianna
I used to be convinced that I was a math/science moron, but maybe my teachers just sucked?

A good prof can make all the difference in the world... I knew I was going into some hard science field as a freshman in college but I had some great profs who were definitely instrumental in steering me into physics... It challenged me in a way I like to be challenged-- "Whip off the 109 steps of the Krebs cycle right off the top of yer head" is most definitely NOT a turn-on for me...

Well in retrospect a few of my early profs kinda sucked. The material itself was an inexorable draw for me, however. Sort of one a them points of attraction or whathaveyou, in chaos theory...

51 posted on 02/09/2003 2:36:25 PM PST by maxwell (Well I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation...)
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To: Archangelsk
You and I are saying the same thing. A "survey" physics course can always be designed, usually for the student who wants to know the what and the how but not the why. These courses can be designed with any level of math required by the prerequisites the students have. I point out that for the student headed into a "hard" science, the non-math rigor takes time from a stronger program I am all in favor of people who are not tracked into a college bound program taking whatever they like, and "general Physics" is as good a course as any, and better than many for explaining how to solve problems in the real world where the underlying mathematical explaination may not be required, (Such as F = ma and F= the derivative of momentum)
52 posted on 02/09/2003 7:46:21 PM PST by KC_for_Freedom
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To: PatrickHenry
"There's no reason not to have two physics courses in high school."
Are you serious? How about the fact that students have to cover Biology, chemistry, physics, and earth science in four years? Where are they going to fit that fifth science class? Why not do it right the first time when they have the tools necessary to do it. Which of those subjects would you like students to give up so that they could take the history of physics? I don't know of any middle school students who take trigonometry, not even basic trig. If you think that special relativity doesn't require advanced math, then you have no idea what special relativity is. And the logic behind it is beyond most human beings, not just 9th graders. I include myself in that group of human beings who don't have a complete understanding of special relativity.
53 posted on 06/26/2005 11:53:23 AM PDT by scitch
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To: longshadow
Gosh. My high-school physics was calculus-based, and calculus then wasn't taught until the 12th grade. (They made it the standard track for 11th graders the year I graduated.) Then again, the teacher was a doctoral student personally recruited by the principal at the last moment. (She happened to have the necessary teaching credentials, but decided to do something more sensible.)
54 posted on 06/26/2005 12:21:08 PM PDT by dufekin
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To: Archangelsk

It's not just the level of difficulty.

It's the sequence in which science knowledge applied; the foundatation that other disciplines build upon.

Each discipline used all of the ones before in order.

1. physics
2. chemistry
3. biology
4. Earth sciences (geology, astronomy, oceanography, meteorology).

The only problem is that at least a solid foundation of algebra II and geometry is needed for physics.

For this reason science is taught in reverse order.


55 posted on 06/26/2005 12:27:29 PM PDT by edwin hubble
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To: scitch

"There's no reason not to have two physics courses in high school."

Physical Science is usually taught in 8th grade (physics without the math) and then Physics in 11th or 12th.


56 posted on 06/26/2005 12:30:05 PM PDT by edwin hubble
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To: Archangelsk

Definitely teach physics first. The other sciences are more abstract and should be taught after some more concrete facts have been assimilated.


57 posted on 06/26/2005 12:33:00 PM PDT by RightWhale (withdraw from the 1967 UN Outer Space Treaty)
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To: dufekin

The problem with calculus is never the calculus (a derivative, is a derivative, is a derivative) the real problem lies in rembering the algebraic sequence.


58 posted on 06/26/2005 12:59:27 PM PDT by Archangelsk (Handbasket, hell. Get used to the concept.)
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