Posted on 02/07/2003 2:16:24 PM PST by Utah Girl
Dalmations did not show the same animosity towards their Serbian (many of whom were Roman Catholic) population. It is no wonder that Starcevic and his ilk was a political factor of a certain class of people.
The many "Illyrian" Croatians, whose movement was later transformed into a "Yugoslav" initiative, had a completely different opinion of Serbs, but they did not represent an average Croatian Joe. In fact, the Croatian intellectual and emigre elite that wanted union with Serbia was eons apart form its ethnic cousins who worshipped Starcevic, Frank and others.
But, go, if you must! Maybe where you dwell it's okay to mix apples and oranges. We have higher standards. Hasta la vista, baby!
You have a point about common dangers faced by Serbs and Croats, and I count expansionist Islam and imperialists from the west who shall remain unnamed as the two major ones. However, the latter danger has cast its lot with the former, at least in the Balkans, and pretty much has both Serbia and Croatia under its boot. Self-destructive behavior to be sure, but until such sponsorship ends don't you think the Serbs and Croats will be hamstrung in effectively meeting the threat you identified?
As I said, "the attitude of the Republic of Croatia is exactly what caused the war in the first place and made a political solution almost impossible."
The status of the Croatians inside RSK or 'Greater Serbia' should have been negotiated. The same goes for the Serbs in Herceg-Bosna and the rest of 'Greater-Croatia'. My oppinion is that both minorities (Serbs in Croatia, Croats in Serbia) should have gained full citizen status in both countries and 'cultural autonomy' after a final agreement and the necessary redrawing of borders and seperation for a stable geopolitical solution in the former Yugoslavia and for their nations to prosper. Tudman's degrading of Croatia's Serbs from a constituent nation to a minority wasn't the best thing to do at that time. Instead we have now foreign occupation and masters dictating the nations in the former Yugoslavia their political will.
First of all, show me where Garashanin's work equals or even smacks of Starcevic's. Oh, wait, it's obvious you know about it, but you have never read Nachertanie. That much is obvious. His work had nothing to do with Croats, it did not demonize, dehumanize, marginalize, etc. Croats. In fact, the bullwork of this was made by Polish emigres in Istanbul. The fact that you are tossing names as if you know what you are talking about is a smoke screen, along with labeling others as bigots when you have nothing more constructive to say.
So, hot shot, we should do away with history, right? Tradition, those who died for a cause, etc. all that's meaningless. Ah, if we could only have more pragmatists like you.
You have Islamophobia? Are you doing something about it? Or are you just wasting your time passing labels on chat forums? Got anything more constructive than "set aside your differences" and mixing apples and organes and betraying your utter inability to tell them appart?
Serbs had vested interests to protect their status. If they were in the same rot as their Croatians neighbors, the serfs, they would have had every reason to be on the same political wavelength. Some politicians exploited that, as all politicians do. Like, people in "real" and pragmatic democracies don't fall for BS?
If Croatians just minded their own business instead of posting inaccurate articles I am sure most of the freepers on this forum would never find it necessary to even mention them. It's mind over matter: I don't mind and they don't matter!.
So two of us Christians can't make mends while the Islamic boogeymen have a meeting in Travnik. What are we to do? Stop them? With what? RS police? The phantom "Herceg-Bosna" storm troopers? Or maybe just use NATO or SFOR? Bosnia is occupied and ruled by a Western proconsul who makes laws by decree and fires elected oficials. Travnik is in the middle of Bosnian "Muslimania," the heartland of Islamic fundamentalism which, by the way, is not illegal.
History is important to put things into a sensinble perspective because, like you, some people are confused and a vast majority of people on our forum don't know the origins of some of the problems, so this is done for their benefit, to promote understanding of what made the mess in the Balkans.
You have already mentioned the Islamic threat several times. I am anxiously waiting for a constructive proposal what to do about it? And when you are at it, why don't you tell those feuding Christians in Ireland to "set aside their differences?"
If we only knew exactly how many of the population entered Serbia from other parts of former Y between the 1991 census and the 2002 census and how many of each ethnicity, then we'd have a better picture.
UNHCR showed 650,000 refugees entered Serbia from Croatia and BiH as of December 1995. UNHCR estimated about 527,000 of those refugees from Croatia and BiH whom they consider "persons of concern" still remained in Serbia as of December 2002. The UNHCR figures are an undercount because they don't count people who never registered with UNHCR (many didn't) nor those who joined relatives or otherwise "integrated into society."
The Serb government figure for refugees entering Serbia between 1 January 1991 and 31 December 1995 is 705,622. It also says there are an additional 200,000 registered internally displaced persons who entered Serbia in 1999 from Kosovo and remain (an additional 29,000 in Montenegro).
I'm really not sure how to estimate the actual number of people who entered Serbia from BiH, Croatia and Kosovo after the 1991 census and remained there for the 2001 census. For the purposes of this post, I'll use an estimate of 750,000 (some NGOs claim it's more like a million, but they're trying solicit funds for "the poor refugees" and "the children"). If anyone has a more accurate figure, please let me know.
I know all these 750,000 are not Serbs, but the vast majority are Serbs, so for rough estimating purposes, I'll treat them as though they are all Serbs.
Okay, total population of Serbia (minus Kosovo) according to the 1991 census was 7,822,795. In 2002, the total was 7,498,001 for a net population loss of 324,794, or 4.15%. Setting aside the 750,000 refugees, the population loss was 1,074,794, or 13.74% Some loss is attributable to the already-low birth rate of 1.74 in 1990, which declined even further over the past decade to 1.48 in 1999. Since 1992, the death rate has exceeded the birth rate. A decline in population would have been expected from this alone, but surely wouldn't have accounted for more than 3.5%???
I can't find any firm figures on migration out of Serbia (other than those who were refugees to start with and those figures aren't solid, either). I've seen estimates of 5%-10% over the course of the decade. If anyone knows the actual figures, please post them. UNHCR says 9,000 ethnic Hungarians in Vojvodina emigrated to Hungary between 1991 and 1995; the Hungarian State Department folks say unofficially that an additional 6,000 - 9,000 draft-dodgers (males of various ethnicities of military age, mainly younger ones) emigrated from Serbia to/through Hungary that they know of.
Serbs: According to the 1991 census, there were 6,045,000 Serbs in Serbia, constituting 77.27% of the total population. The 2002 census shows 6,200,000, or 82.69% of the total population, a gain of 155,000 or 2.56%.
Taking the estimated 750,000 refugees out of the equation, Serbs constitute 80.76% of the non-refugee population, and there were 595,000 fewer non-refugee Serbs in 2002, a decline of 9.84%. (Again, this is VERY rough, because all the refugees are not Serbs, and I don't know the actual number of refugees, just using that 750,000 guesstimate.)
Croats: In 1991, there were 93,874 Croats in Serbia, or 1.2%. The 2002 census lists 70,602 Croats constituting 0.94% of the population, a loss of 23,272 or 24.92%. Again, disregarding the 750,000 and assuming for estimation purposes that they are all non-Croats, then Croats account for 1.05% of the non-refugee population.
I could continue on with Hungarians, Roma, etc., but since it would just be rough estimates, won't. Anyway, when you look at the picture in terms of the non-refugee population, it's rather a different picture, isn't it? There is still a larger net loss percentage-wise of minorities like Croats and Hungarians than of Serbs (indicating they felt social/political pressure to leave, and/or that they could claim such as minorities to get the heck out of an economic Dodge), but Serbs lost population, too.
If you can give more figures, I'd appreciate it. It would be interesting.
It would also be interesting to know when and why people left Serbia.
I could continue on with Hungarians, Roma, etc., but since it would just be rough estimates, won't. Anyway, when you look at the picture in terms of the non-refugee population, it's rather a different picture, isn't it? There is still a larger net loss percentage-wise of minorities like Croats and Hungarians than of Serbs (indicating they felt social/political pressure to leave, and/or that they could claim such as minorities to get the heck out of an economic Dodge), but Serbs lost population, too.
There were some Croats cleansed out of Kosovo after NATO's war by the Albanians: THE CROATS FROM KOSOVO HEADING FOR LIKA
I've heard of at least one Serb refugee family swapping their home in Croatia for a Croat's in Sombor. Also, during the bombing Serbs left Serbia and went to Bosnia (RS) and some Croatian Serb refugees there tried to return to their homes in Croatia. However, because of the hostile attitude towards Serbs in Croatia, I'll bet they couldn't stay, whereas any Croats or Hungarians in Serbia fleeing the bombing or hard economic situation of the past decade would be more accepted by Croatia and Hungary respectively than any Serb.
Sorry to say,you haven`t got a clue!
But,I am gratefull to you for opening my eyes:nothing in Balkans is black or white!?
But,why are your flipant remarks and posts so black and white?
You remind me of Hoplite:if you don`t like the answer you throw insults!
Furthermore,I agree with Kosta that you like throwing arround names,but without a basic,let alone,profound knowlege about names (people)mentioned or their work!
Starchevich and Ilia Garashanin are incomparable.In every sense.
And,let me tell you something about ideas:they don`t have a sell by date.
Ilia Garashanin was a foreign minister in Serbia,when he had "drawn" a "Blueprint"(Nachertanie).The year was 1848,the time of massive European Romanticysm and revival of national aspirations of many nations in Mittel Europa!Chechs and Slovacs,Poles ...When Garashanin made Nachertanie it was a desire of an occupied,semi-indenpendent Christian nation under Islam,to be indenpendent after 450 years.And of one nation to live together,in the same state.
At that time,there was no Croatian state,just Habzburg Empire.Garashanin does not talk about Croats ,wish them no evil.There is no criticisum of other nations,or racism!
Nachertanie was a private document,which was not published,or implemented it practice.
Garashanin did not organize a political party (like Starchevich) and he was not spreading inflamatory hatred to Serbian people!Serbia,at that time had more important problems to deal with.
Serbia could have created Grater Serbia at the end of the WWI,but it did not,because the idea has never been official policy of Serbian people.
To compare Garashanin and Starchevich is ridiculous and loughable.Know the subject,Wonk,before you start lecturing some of us.
Your disregard and disrespect for history is dangerous and very contradictory!?
You want to deal with Islamic presence in Balkans by forcing Balkanoids to "stop wallowing in history",which is,I guess,un-American way of thinking,right!And,we are all stupid idiots.But,problem is,you have discovered Islamic(fundamentalist) threat after 9/11.That is the day when history has begun,because,USA was hit!
Well,you`re only 600 years late.pall!
So,now,we all have to say :Yes,Sir! and abandone all that has happened before,because,you say so?
Only your pain is relevant,and your version of history.
But,thank you for the marching orders,anyway!
And,don`t think that you are "power in charge".
Maybe,your government is...No wonder that your posts look like Rumsfelds memos!
Don`t insult other people and be arrogant.You don`t have a credit on FR to do that.
And,if you don`t like Balkan threads,you can always go away!
Does that number include the refugees from the occupied territories? My understanding was that they're not citizens of Yu or its successor, so I infer that they wouldn't be Serb citizens either. Would (assuming they are) non-citizens be counted in the census?
The Serb population overall did not increase that much, as noted in the census. This may have to do with the official refugee status, citizenship and so on. In 1991, because Kosovo was included (estimated), the Serbs constituted only just over 2/3 of the population, with 1 in 5 persons being Albanian.
Besides, there are people who emigrated (brain-drain, like Dr. Branicap), who were killed and so on. The census is a gauge but it must be taken witha grain of salt.
You draw "conclusions" such as "Croats are evil Nazis and Serbs are heroic victims" (where did you get that, who on this forum wrote that?).
You mix apples and oranges, which shows you have no understanding of the subject matter.
You state the problems, but don't specify solutions. I am still waiting for your "solutions" FPW!
You accuse that we live in 'delusions' which takes us away from getting Kosovo back. And what would that course of action be, if you don't mind me asking your esteemed opinion on this? Taking it, as by force? By the Ghandi-style walk-in into Goa -- all 7.2 million Serbs just walking into Kosovo, what? Kosovo, with 2 million Albaninas, is the last thing Serbia needs right now. They can negotiate partition, resettlement, and so on, but Serbia does not need 20% of sworn enemies in its mids.
And yes, Serbs have been stupid at times, biting more than they can chew, but then show me one nation that doesn't fit that bill.
In short, as Branicap points out, you don't answer questions, you don't provide solutions, all you do is make sweeping generalizations and insults. Pretty pathetic.
According to the results of 1991. Census the Republic of Serbia has 9778991 inhabitants (94,1% of the population of FR Yugoslavia), of which 2013889 live in Vojvodina, 1956196 in Kosovo and Metohia (estimate) and in Belgrade, the capitol of the Republic of Serbia, 1602226 inhabitants.
I'm finding more info on emigration and will post when I've digested it.
The census is a gauge but it must be taken witha grain of salt.
Yes, a very large grain. Speaking of "brain drain" I read an essay lamenting the loss of experienced expert staticians in the Serbian census bureau.
I've heard of at least one Serb refugee family swapping their home in Croatia for a Croat's in Sombor.
Oh yes, there was house-swapping going on indeed. Sometimes three-way house-swapping between residents of Croatia, BiH and the FRY. Got complicated and sometimes gave me a headache. However, in Croatia, ethnic Serbs faced significant legal obstacles to obtaining property rights which hampered their ability to sell or swap their homes. I could go on and on about that, but won't.
Also, during the bombing Serbs left Serbia and went to Bosnia (RS) and some Croatian Serb refugees there tried to return to their homes in Croatia.
Well, the question is, did those Serbs who went to RS stay there, or return after the bombing was over? As for Croatian Serbs trying to return to their homes in Croatia, I'm not doubting you at all, but two questions: (1) How did they get there? NATO bombed the only remaining bridge between the FRY and Croatia, the Backa Palanka bridge, so they would have had to go up and around through Hungary to get there. And without having gone through the proper (and difficult and lengthy) return procedures through the Croatian ODPR, they would have been turned away at the Croatian border even if the Hungarians let them pass through. (2) What homes? I had a terrible time trying to find any standing homes for these people to return to.
...whereas any Croats or Hungarians in Serbia fleeing the bombing or hard economic situation of the past decade would be more accepted by Croatia and Hungary respectively than any Serb.
Oh yes, that's true. And not only Croatia and Hungary, but also other European countries who granted assylum to minorities from the FRY.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.