Back from the Grave: Familiar stories in Croatia

NRO ^ | 2/7/2003 | Jeffrey T. Kuhner

[DTA]

>>>>>>Another outright lie. Croatia's living standard today is higher than it ever was during SFRJ times, both in real and in nominal terms. The SFRJ's GDP per capita never came anything close to $8,300 USD.<<<<<

Good for Croatia and Croatians to enjoy such prosperity :-)

Not bad when comparing 2001 dollars with 1971 and 1981 dolaars.

According to the inflation calcullator $8300 today is worth the same as $1800 in 1971 and $4000 in 1981, approximatelly the GDP of former Yugoslavia at that time.

I personally wish Croatians prosperity. When someone is rich, he is less likely to plot to kill his neighbor to steal his land, homestead and everything else and kill the owner for a roll of dimes.

Starcevich policy got support from "haves nots" who found a good platform for outright robbery without consequences.

[branicap]

Well,Gael,if it wasn`t you,I would perform coup de grace!Damn!

But,your apeal on humanitarian basis I can not refuse,on the basis of my profession!LOOOOOOOOL!

Call the fork-lift to drag that fat carcas away!It stinks.

Gael,one does not slaughter fools,they commit suicide!Featherweights shouldn`t fight Tyson.

Now,a question for you guys:I checked a couple of articles in Washington Times from this Kuhner caracter.He is unbelieveable:Tudjman couldn`t write beter.Did you read anything from him before?

PS.Correction:Featherweights shouldn`t fight Tyson and Mohamad Ali(Kosta)!

[foreign policy wonk]

Kuhner is correct in his view that the Hague is a sham, and is an inquisition to make both the Serbs and Croatians bend down in favour of the international powers.

Kuhner is also correct that the State Dep't has installed pliant former communists in both Belgrade and Zagreb to do the West's bidding.

Kuhner's opinions are based on solid foundations.

I suggest that both Croatians and Serbians take the advice and set aside their differences and concentrate more on the twin threats of Islamic extremism from Bosnia, and Western meddling in their local affairs.

With the world focused on the Middle East, now is the time.

Thing is, both Djindjic and Racan need to be given the heave-ho so that honourable conservatives like Kostunica and Pasalic, and not communist apparatchiks, be given the reigns of power to effectively deal with Saudi-backed Islamic incursions in Middle Bosnia.

Clinton's meddling was quite damaging in the Balkans, and Tudjman and Milosevic could only do so much.

Maybe the new generation can focus on the task while the world's view is averted.



be seeing you,

foreign policy wonk


post 0049

[getoffmylawn]

I suggest that both Croatians and Serbians take the advice and set aside their differences and concentrate more on the twin threats of Islamic extremism from Bosnia, and Western meddling in their local affairs.

How do you imagine the Serbs and Croats overcoming the obstacles inherent in the Croatian facism directed against the Serbs that is so prevalent in much of the Croatian psyche so well illustrated in posts #35 and #36 by kosta50 and branicap?

[vooch]

slam dunk...........ye indeed after 12 years of HDZ & HSP........Croats and Dalmatians are poorere than they were in 1988 !!!

[foreign policy wonk]

Thank you for asking that question, my friend.

The nationalistic chauvinism is no doubt present on both sides, as typified by hardliners such as Djapic in Croatia, and Seselj in Serbia.

Both use fear and hatred of the other to boost their own standing.

We saw bigotted displays on Zagreb TV directed against Serbs, and we saw the same bigotry directed against Croatians on Belgrade TV under Mitevich.

The hostility is a two way street.

What has to be realized is that it benefits neither and there are bigger fish to fry, particularly Western meddling and Islamic extremism.

Few Croats are left in Serbia, and most of the Serbs are gone from Croatia. Tudjman and Milosevich cleaned up the map.

Borisav Jovich, Milosevich's righthand man, personally told Croatian envoy Sharinich that their interest lay in Bosnia and not Croatia and that they could "hang those Serbs for all I care".

Tudjman and Milosevich were de facto partners in the scheme.

Clinton's meddling made things much messier.



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foreign policy wonk


post 0066

[vooch]

Few Croats are left in Serbia

oh rrrreally ?

you endless fountain of misinformation.......pray back that statement up with some hard data..........

and if you don't, I'm certain Kosta50 or Joan have the statistics ready.

[foreign policy wonk]

What misinformation?

There weren't many to begin with, as most were in Voivodina, around Subotica.



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foreign policy wonk


post 0067

[kosta50]

Vooch, foreing policy wonk has a point: according to the last census in 2002 [sorry the reference is in Serbian], the number of Croats in Serbia has dropped precipitously.

Specifically, in central Serbia, the drop is 35.3%, in Voyvodina the relative drop is 22%, with an average Serbia-wide (not counting Kosovo) drop in Croat population of 25.1% since 1991. The croat population in Serbia is now 0.94% (which represents 70,602 souls).

The drop of the Croatian population follows similar changes for just about every other ethnic group except for Serbs (whose numbers were augmented by refugees from Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo) and Gypsies.

One of the largest statistical dives is evidenced in the so-called undeclared "Yugoslavs" whose demographic change is about 75%. Certainly, neither the Croats nor any other group that has experienced precipitious drop was a result of forced expulsions, as was the case with changes of the Serb populations elsewhere.

[kosta50]

Borisav Jovich, Milosevich's righthand man, personally told Croatian envoy Sharinich that their interest lay in Bosnia and not Croatia and that they could "hang those Serbs for all I care"...Tudjman and Milosevich were de facto partners in the scheme

So, is this what you mean by "setting aside their differences?"

[branicap]

Wonk,I believe that you didn`t read my and Kosta`s posts.Or SuperDude¬.

Your simplistic aproach to the Serbian-Croat problem is very naive and does not reflect situation "on the ground".

First of all,in Serbia propper,there was no expulsion of Croats or deep animosity against them.Croats didn`t constitute a large population anyway.You must know that today,Serbia again ,is a host to Croatian bands and theathers,but it is a one way street!Situation is much different in Croatia.

You must know,Wonk,that historical perspective,timing and longevity of political propaganda are very important!Just read previous Kosta`s posts:campaign of hatred against tha Serbs had begun in Croatia in the 19th century!At that time,nothing of a kind was present in Kingdom of Serbia.The terrible result of Starchevich`s and Frank`s decades of hatred was genocide of Serbs in WWII!Use the link provided in previous posts.Or read SuperDupe`s posts in order to gain a clearer picture.

And,those policies are very much present in Croatia today.In recent surway,80% of polled Croats replied that "would never marry a Serb or would like to have anything to do with them!"

Enough said.

BTW,Stipe Mesich has never been a communist.Franjo Tudjman was!It is a standart Western practice to accuse current politicians in Eastern Europe(if they don`t play the game) to point out their communist "roots"!But,former Eastern European politicians were communists indeed,and amassed a large expirience in politics and government!No wonder that they know better how to play the political game than "newcomers" without any previous expirience!And,thank`s to the human nature,we all like to deal or vote for "devil we know" than to jump into the unknown,right?!

It is not that simple ,Wonk.Not at all.

[foreign policy wonk]

Stipe Mesic was a communist since his youth.

He held many positions, including mayor of a certain Slavonian town.

As for Croatian animosity towards Serbs, it's understandable considering what happened in 1991.

The vice versa also applies since Serbs were targeted as well.



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foreign policy wonk


post 0067

[MikeUmovi]

The special status of the Serbs (yeoman farmers, etc.), I believe, came about because they took over vacated lands between the Croats and the Turks and were thus the first line of defense and first in line for destruction. Given the Serbs treatment by the Turks they were only too happy to be on the hot seat.

[Seselj]

The way I understand it, the Bunjevci (Croats) in Backa used to identify themselves as Croats, but after the wars in the early 90's they because so ashamed of Croats that now they identify themselves as Serbs. That would explain the drop in Serbia's Croatian minority.

[Gael]

Kuhner is an assistant editor on the WashTimes' editorial page, which might help explain the paper's anti-Serb slant. He's written a number of times about why the ICTY's investigations of Croat generals might lead to indictments there of Clinton (like that's a bad thing) under a "command responsibility" theory.

[foreign policy wonk]

Kuhner's objection has been to the whole process of the Hague violating state sovereignty.

The Washington Times is quite the rightwing paper, as opposed to its local competitor, the Post.



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foreign policy wonk


post 0068

[Gael]

He's quite indifferent to the ICTY's violation of Serbia's sovereignty through prosecution of Slobo et al., so I consider the argument that it's bad because it violates Croatia's sovereignty to be made in bad faith. Rather, his interest is in keeping butchers like Bobetko from going there using the strawman argument that this will lead to Americans being prosecuted for their oversight role in Oluja (as set forth in my link). He simply fears public airing of the Croats' activities in the Krajina. I say, sauce for the goose . . .

[kosta50]

As for Croatian animosity towards Serbs, it's understandable considering what happened in 1991

This may seem impossible to you, but the history actually started before Clinton took his oath of office.

The point is: Serbs and Croats lived next to each other since the end of the 15th century. There have ben no massacres or ethnic wars betwen them. As MikeUmovi observed, the Serbs were free, the Croats were serfs. Austria hired Serbs to fend off the Turks at the Austrian border. The Serbs were tax-exempt. Being of a different socal status, their political aspration and alliances sometimes differed from those of the Croatian peasant serfs, who were jealous and hateful of the Serbs for being better off.

Ante Starcevic netted this antagonism and turned it into a political "philosophy" of pure hate for his political party of Rights. To him Serbs were not even human, and his followers to this date couldn't agree more.

Referred to as the "Father of the [Croatian] NAtion," Starecevic defined Croat nationalism on racism, and his followers have carried that dogma from one generation to another until this this very day.

The only thing that is related to 1991 -- considering the background just outlined -- is the the extent and foricity of Serb refusal to live in a secessionist state of Croatia which considers a pure and unadultered biggot Ante Starcevic as the "Father of the Nation."

Your attempt to equalize nationalsts on both sides shows a well known phenomenon that liberary science and Google.com cannot provide understanding of an issue, alebit they can provide the data.

As long as Croatia honors Starcevics, Franks and Pavelics, it will be what it has been over 140 years -- a country defined on hate and racism, without an equal -- except for Albanians.

[DestroyEraseImprove]

As for Croatian animosity towards Serbs, it's understandable considering what happened in 1991.

What is so understandable? And as for Serbian animosity towards Croats, it's understandable considering what happened in WWII. Who came first, the egg or the chicken?

Croatia declared independence from Yugoslavia and was willing to proceed with it by using military force against the political and military institutions of the SFRY. In response to Croatia's declaration of independence, the Republic of Serbian Krajina declared independence from Croatia and was willing to proceed with it by using military force against the political and military institutions of the Republic of Croatia.

You see, this attitude of the Republic of Croatia is exactly what caused the war in the first place and made a political solution almost impossible. At the same time the leadership in Zagreb was demanding certain rights for their nation and refusing to allow these same rights to the Serbian nation.

[foreign policy wonk]

No doubt that there exists a hatred of Serbs on the Croat side.

But don't judge lest ye be judged.

The actions of the Serbs in Croatia towards Croats speaks volumes as well.

No one is innocent, including the Serbs.

As for your theory that the entire Krajina was staffed by Serbs, it is incorrect. Following that logic, the town of Varazhdin and Karlovac and Slavonski Brod would have been entirely Serb as they were in the Military frontier.

The Military Frontier was a mixed Serb-Croat area.

I came here to this forum for honest debate and discussion.

It seems that most here hold the view that the Serbs are perpetual victims while Croats and others are perpetually evil.

Nothing in the Balkans is black and white.

I'll leave you bigots and racists to fester in your own swamp.



be seeing you,

foreign policy wonk


post 0068