What's Wrong With Cloning?

MHGinTN ^ | 1/31/2003 | MHGinTN

[MHGinTN]

The President called for a ban on cloning in his State of the Union Address. So, what's wrong with cloning?

Every individual life is a continuum hallmarked by growth and development. We are invited, through the media, to differentiate reproductive cloning from therapeutic cloning, but both conceive a cloned individual human being, in vitro. Scientists seeking to exploit therapeutic cloning would have us believe that, because their goal doesn't include life support to the birth stage, their 'form' of cloning is okay. Far from it; it's a worse application of the technology. Therapeutic cloning seeks to conceive 'designer' individual human beings, give them life support either in a growth medium or a woman's body, then kill and harvest from these individuals the target tissues for which the cloned being was conceived.

It is important to realize that an embryo IS an individual human being: goals of cloning scientists bear witness to the hidden truth that they are conceiving a unique human being, whether for reproductive or therapeutic aims. Giving tacit acceptance to a proven lie --that the embryo is not an individual human life-- is bad enough, we’ve done this for more than thirty years, but to embrace cannibalism founded on such a lie is far more degenerate.

Tacit acceptance for manipulating individual human life has lead from in vitro fertilization to partial birth infanticide, proving the bankruptcy of continuing moderate acceptance. We are now staring at cannibalism in the name of whatever you care to call it. Even an embryo no bigger than a grain of sugar is an individual human life. Is it acceptable to kill that individual for their body parts? If you think that it is, at least know that it is cannibalism.

[r9etb]

From a purely practical perspective, there's the obvious problem of unintended consequences. For example, this thread talks about how domesticated animals not only act different, they look different, too. IOW, there's some subtle genetic connection between behavior and morphology.

Human cloning is tremendously more prone to problems. Animal breeding is in some degree self-policing, as the genetic mix must pass the tests of gestation, surviving birth, and being allowed to breed. Most misfits wouldn't make it past gestation.

None of these tests would apply to human clones -- those doing the "policing" would work hard to ensure that the clone passes gestation and birth, which helps to ensure that horrible "accidents" will happen. And in essence those accidents would be staged on purpose.

It's a hell of a thing to do to any creature, not to mention a human being.

[GraniteStateConservative]

A clone of ... Jaime Presley could grab me anywhere they want,anytime they want.

Already done!

[Texaggie79]

Really? Cause I thought they were completely identical in every way :P

[MHGinTN]

Ping-a-ling. Time to offer your friend's information regarding the dissimilarity of identical twins?

[weikel]

Science is absolutely firm on the truth that an individual life begins at conception

Think you got science and RCC doctrine confused there.

[MHGinTN]

Would you like to assign a different starting point for individual human life? It takes nothing to make a statement if you don't back it up with something. If you would accept embryologist, I could offer their comments ont he subject. would you care to offer rebuttal from other science sources? I haven't assert anything of a religious nature; for you to assert the comment is from the RCC and thus my assertion is invalid, so you will appoint an alternate possibility is basically superstitious.

[MHGinTN]

I'm not a Roman Catholic, by the way.

[weikel]

No nerve and brain development mean a Blastocyst is not a person yet. At 7 weeks they can feel pleasure and pain so after that point im willing to consider them a person. Not before.

[newgeezer]

What do we call a child born out of wedlock?

A missed opportunity (if you're an abortionist).

[weikel]

No there are no Clintons in the master race I am breeding... Muhahahahahahahaha.

[ASA Vet]

When will I be able to put in my order for a Kobe Tai clone?

[newgeezer]

Already done!

For the benefit of those of us in Cubicle Land, you might post an appropriate WARNING with a link such as that.

The walls have eyes, as well as clenched sphincters, when large areas of flesh appear on a drone's monitor. :-)

[MHGinTN]

Is the life conceived through union of male human gamete and female human gamete, human life? Is there arguably an 'individual' status we may assign (or individuals, in the case of identical twins or more arising from the first cell of fecundation) to the conceptus? Is that individual life adapted (in form and function) for existence and survival as per its environment at that age? Can we reasonably expect the conceptus to continue surviving if the requisite environmental conditions continue unabated at that age/functioning capacity? Does any other living species exit the womb (as per the continuum argument having human concetion at the beginning) of the human female? Finally, does the conceptus, as it develops from single cell through zygote and then embryo age, create its own capsule that protects it from tissue rejection by the host's life supporting body ... does the conceptus function to survive, whether willfully (as in dicision making) or otherwise?

[weikel]

Cloning will be cool... imagine women who are honest, beautiful, phermonically programmed to be attracted to you, cook, clean. It can be a scientific solution to feminism.

[weikel]

Is the life conceived through union of male human gamete and female human gamete, human life?

Eventually if all goes well.

Is there arguably an 'individual' status we may assign (or individuals, in the case of identical twins or more arising from the first cell of fecundation) to the conceptus?

They are an individual you don't "assign" them that status.

Is that individual life adapted (in form and function) for existence and survival as per its environment at that age?

Obviously not if they are a baby. Can we reasonably expect the conceptus to continue surviving if the requisite environmental conditions continue unabated at that age/functioning capacity?

Hmmmmm. Is this the same question? Does any other living species exit the womb (as per the continuum argument having human concetion at the beginning) of the human female?

Not normally but thats the process of cloning so far. Eventually it will be done in vitro.

Finally, does the conceptus, as it develops from single cell through zygote and then embryo age, create its own capsule that protects it from tissue rejection by the host's life supporting body ... does the conceptus function to survive, whether willfully (as in dicision making) or otherwise?

Huh?

[MHGinTN]

You've mix the 'metaphors'. First you deny the characterization 'individual human life' is present immediately following fecundation, but you've changed your focus to 'personhood' ... No nerve and brain development mean a Blastocyst is not a person yet. Personhood is a subjective characterization, as evidenced by the legal notion that an American citizen comes into view with birth.

[weikel]

A Blastoclyst is potential life but not life itself. Thats a reductio ad absurdium. The really hardcore people hate "seed spilling" too.

[stuartcr]

Sticks and clone may break your bones, but out of wedlock names can never hurt you.

[MHGinTN]

Is the life conceived through union of male human gamete and female human gamete, human life?

You asserted, superstitiously, "Eventually, if all goes well." If you're going to convince us that your superstition is superior to science, you'll have to do better than that, you'll have to pin-point the moment that the life conceived by the union of human gametes actually becomes human and tell us what species the life belonged to prior to your assumed starting point for human.

[Chemist_Geek]

I guess what I'm saying is, spiritual/religious issues aside, is that we don't know what the consequences are for the clone or the rest of humanity on a purely medical level, and I would hate to see some hapless people suffer because of some scientists'(like Clonaid scientists) zeal.

How will we find out, but through experiment? Theory is nice, but someone's gotta get in the lab and do it to find out...