shocking propaganda against France

I am very shocked by the current propaganda against France and, in a minor extent, Germany and the EU, which is developing on the American web and media. As we are some "old Europe" countries, let me tell you that some elements of this propaganda remind me of the atmosphere that existed between European peoples of 1914-18 : the Frenchman is the USA's Jew, the traitor, the coward, which plants knives in the back. These are paranoid ideas. Bush has declared "you are with us or you are against us"… your enemies are "evil's axis"… A deeply thought political theory which reminds me of older simplistic speeches. Believe the experience of "old Europe", who knows a lot about the matter, and is not proud of it : your war has already begun, you're under propaganda, and rational arguments don't prevail any more.

France was on the Gulf ten years ago, when Irak invaded its neighbour, and when the coalition was covered by the UN to free Kuwait.

According to the NATO alliance, France made clear during the first hours after the 11th September that it was ready to respect its engagements if necessary.

But with the future Anglo-Saxon crusade against Bagdad, things are very different. The OTAN was a defensive alliance against the Pact of Varsovia. To be an ally of the USA doesn't mean to give its allegiance to the USA. It means, in case of aggression by another state, that solidarity becomes effective. Irak has not yet attacked anyone. NATO should have nothing to do with "preventive wars".

Can't you all simply understand this : as you are so powerful, rich, and influent, it's more courageous for France to refuse to engage in this war. There will be retaliation against France for such an attitude. To send a few planes in the Gulf and drop a few bombs, just like the UK or Italy, would have been so simple for France.

French people are not the stupid blind nationalists that your propaganda is pretending they are. French people know they have lost their weight in international politics. But they don't want to abandon their sovereignty to an other organisation than the European union. Is it so scandalous that they want to be free and independent ?

Well, it's true that "we are not with you". Because this is not a war for Irak's freedom and democracy. This is not even a war against terrorism ; this war will create thousands of new terrorists full of hate for America. A government only makes war for its own interest. This war is for the Iraki oil, and to be more independent of Saudi Arabia, the country of the 11th September terrorists, where Al Qaida money comes from. It's a war to completely change the Middle-East and so the world-wide energetic map. I find logical for the USA to defend their interests. The powerful countries have always acted like this. It's cynic and amoral, but, somehow, "natural". But stop talking about democracy, and the Good against Evil. This is not Starwars. This is not a Tolkien's story.

S. Hussein is a dictator, he has massacred and tortured. He probably owns and surely has owned chemical and biological weapons. But what about Libya, Iran, North Korea, China in Tibet, Russia in Chechnya, Israel in Palestine, etc… ? If democracy in Irak is the aim, why does it become urgent right now ? Were the Afghans free when the Talibans were installed to stabilise a country where pipe-lines had to go through ?

France is a traitor, France is isolated - isolated with the rest of the world except the OTAN. That's what your leaders need to make you believe because they don't want you to know that you have mainly a simple Anglo-Saxon coalition. OTAN : approximately 20 countries with the new eastern members - less France, Germany, and Benelux. The rest of the world : Asia, Africa, South America, the Middle East… And the rest of the world fears you but it doesn't love you.

Is it so necessary for the USA to crush all possibility of counterbalancing power ? Do they complain about the treason of an ally or the independence of one of their own "satellite countries" ? They have succeeded in being hated by the whole Moslem world - which owns the main oil reserves. Is it so enjoyable that they now need to invective and humiliate the western European countries trying to build their political union ? Do they love so much to be hated ?

To conclude, here's the dream your government is currently destroying by its politics in western Europe - it was made by an "old", "disloyal", "nationalist", "chauvinist" Frenchman (even a bit socialist, what a monster ! …) :

"Un jour viendra où vous, France, vous, Russie, vous, Angleterre, vous, Allemagne, vous toutes, nations du continent, sans perdre vos qualités distinctes et votre glorieuse individualité, vous vous fondrez étroitement dans une unité supérieure et vous constituerez la fraternité européenne, absolument comme la Bretagne, la Bourgogne, la Lorraine, l'Alsace se sont fondues dans la France […]. Un jour viendra où l'on verra ces deux groupes immenses, les Etats-Unis d'Amérique, les Etats-Unis d'Europe, placés en face l'un de l'autre, se tendant la main par-dessus les mers, échangeant leurs produits, leur commerce, leur industrie, leurs arts, leurs génies, défrichant le globe, colonisant les déserts, améliorant la création sous le regard du Créateur."

(The day will come when you, France, you, Russia, you, England, you, Germany, all of you, nations of the continent, without losing your distinct qualities and your glorious individualities, you will melt closely into a superior unity and you will constitute the European brotherhood, absolutely as Brittany, Burgundy, Lorraine, Alsace have melted into France […]. The day will come when we'll see those two huge groups, the United States of America, the United States of Europe, facing each other, offering hand beyond the seas, exchanging their products, their commerce, their industry, their arts, their genius, clearing the globe, colonising the deserts, improving the creation under the look of the Creator.)

NATO should have nothing to do with "preventive wars".

KOSOVO

French people are not the stupid blind nationalists that your propaganda is pretending they are.

100,000 Albanians buried in mass graves.

I've been trying to get this sentiment worked into a discussion. There is no near term solution at this point. USA under Clintons screwed up bigtime, they are criminals and the rest of the world knows it. As a nation, we let them walk.

Can't prosecute them now. Would divert attention away from WOT and damage existing relations further. This is by no means W's fault. The only way out is to let G.W.B's integrity work into their mindset. But that may not work. We lost their trust. God what a mess the Clinton's made!

Best to forget about it, unless someone has a better idea.

The faults of the French are well-known. There are still alot of wonderful people there though. They still have strong family traditions.

I have lived there. I see a typical French family of six sitting around the family dining table discussing America's war with Iraq. They mention no hard evidence has been presented and that Iraq is not threatening any of its neighbors at the moment. They recall the last time America had dragged Europe into a war in Yugoslavia and justified it on "preventing" WWIII. They long ago saw the genocide story as propaganda.

Now that said, I think they are wrong about Iraq and right about Yugoslavia. I imagine sitting there at the table with them and explaining the difference in character between Bill Clinton and George W. Bush. They can trust the latter. But still I feel morally weak in defending why we did not prosecute the Clintons. I settle on explaining that America is a great country that sometimes has bad leaders, but its Constitution allows for ridding itself of bad leaders. I end by pleading that France and the USA join together to get this MidEast madness under control for the good of everyone, followed later by a re-examination of the Kosovo mess. I assure them that justice will get the Clintons in the end.

Greetings PierreEsbaillart, FReepers, et al:

Welcome to FR. Lurk a while and ask questions, you may surprised what you will learn. Hopefully the French will come their senses soon; before her capitol becomes Parisistan.
La bienvenue à l'ARMATURE menacent un moment et posent des questions, vous peut a étonné ce que vous apprendrez. Si tout va bien le Français viendra leurs sens bientôt; avant son capitol devient Parisistan.

If Iraq enjoyed a free press, free speech, and freedom of association, and the USA threatened her; there could be a moral unjust war argument. But that is not the case with Iraq. There is no frame of reference, by western standards of civilization, for comparing Iraq. For the controlled Iraqi press, even a Holy Bible requires an image of Saddam Hussein. You did know that. Right?
De si l'Irak appréciait une pression libre, un discours libre, et une liberté association, et les Etats-Unis l'ont menacée; il a pu y a un argument injuste moral de guerre. Mais ce n'est pas le cas avec l'Irak. Il n'y a aucune armature de la référence, par des normes occidentales de civilisation, pour comparer l'Irak. Pour la pression irakienne commandée, même une bible sainte exige une image de Saddam Hussein. Vous avez su cela. Droite?

An ostrich like stance on Iraq will not make Saddam go away, or behave. Sanctions were violated, inspections thwarted, while a new paradigm of warfare emerged: state sponsored terrorism. We're not talking about a cowardly attack upon an unarmed peace protester's ship here. You do understand that an Embassy is an extension of home soil?
Une autruche comme la position sur l'Irak ne fera pas Saddam partir, ou comportez-vous. Des sanctions ont été violées, des inspections contrecarrées, alors qu'un nouveau paradigme de la guerre émergeait: l'état a commandité le terrorisme. Nous ne parlons pas d'une attaque lâche sur le bateau d'un protestataire unarmed de paix ici. Vous comprenez qu'une ambassade est une prolongation du sol à la maison?

Laurie Mylroie, President Clinton's advisor on Iraq, in her book Study of Revenge: The First World Trade Center Attack and Saddam Hussein’s War Against America, leaves little doubt the first WTC attack and US Embassy bombings were Iraqi state sponsored terrorist acts. Mylroie also makes a good case the 9/11 attack was too. Iraq trains terrorist, harbors terrorists, and funds terrorist acts too. With that in mind, a war against state sponsored terrorism is an unjust war?
Laurie Mylroie, conseiller du Président Clinton's sur l'Irak, dans sa étude de livre de vengeance: La premières attaque de centre commercial mondial et guerre de Saddam Hussein?s contre l'Amérique, laisse peu à doute la première attaque de WTC et les bombardements d'ambassade des USA étaient des actes de terroriste commandités par état irakien. Mylroie fait également un bon cas que l'attaque de 9/11 était aussi. L'Irak forme le terroriste, terroristes de ports, et place des actes de terroriste aussi. Avec cela à l'esprit, une guerre contre le terrorisme commandité par état est une guerre injuste?

The horrific cruelty of Saddam is beyond belief. Former UNSCOM inspector, and now peace activist Scott Ritter, described an Iraqi children’s political prison. Ritter asserts in a Time Magazine story if we knew what went on in that children’s prison, even the peaceniks would demand war with Iraq. Freeing the Iraqi children from this brutal repression is somehow unjust?
La cruauté terrifiante de Saddam est au delà de croyance. L'ancien inspecteur d'UNSCOM, et maintenant l'activiste Scott Ritter de paix, ont décrit une prison politique de children?s irakiens. Ritter affirme dans une histoire de magazine de temps si nous savions ce qui a continué du fait la prison de children?s, même les peaceniks exigerait la guerre avec l'Irak. Libérer les enfants irakiens de cette répression brutale est de façon ou d'autre injuste?

This Gulf War Veteran disagrees with the foolish imbeciles of France. Either France is with us, or she is against us. There is little doubt why my ancestors left the "axis of weasel" for the New World.
Ce vétéran de la guerre du Golfe est en désaccord avec les imbeciles idiots de la France. Ou la France est avec nous, ou elle est contre nous. Il y a peu doute pourquoi mes ancêtres ont laissé l'"axe du weasel" pour le nouveau monde.

The Iraqi people have suffered long enough. It is time to liberate the Iraqi people.
Les irakiens ont souffert assez longtemps. Il est temps de libérer les irakiens.

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