Hillary's Dream Will Be Your Nightmare, A Canadian Warns [re:socialized health care]

CNSNews.com ^ | January 24, 2003 | Rachel Marsden

[clamper1797]

Try making sure you are loaded next time.

Given the amount pant load in your posts, I would say that you are definately "loaded"

[Protagoras]

>I for one am glad you are here, like I said, it's easy >
They have a HTML tutorial here as well, you might want to check it out if you last long enough.

[Squawk 8888]

for-profit centres had quality that was significantly lower than that of non-profit centres
Interesting comparison. Even more interesting is that it does not distinguish between government-run vs. privately-run centres.

A 2002 study in Health Affairs estimates that in 1998-99 only 640 Canadians went to Buffalo, Detroit, and Seattle for diagnostic radiology services. Compared to the more than 480,000 MRI procedures performed each year in Ontario's public hospitals, this figure is minuscule.
A government study shows that the government system is just peachy- stop the presses! How hard did they look for people crossing the border for MRIs? Does it mention how many of the 480,000 MRIs in Ontario were performed on family pets? And why is it legal to buy an MRI for Fido but not for grandma?

You're doing you income tax wrong.
Ok tax expert, what box do I use to claim the 5% payroll tax that gets grabbed from my employer before it even hits my paycheque? Where do I get a rebate on the 15% sales tax for everything I buy? Where do I get back the grand a year I fork over in tobacco taxes? How do I avoid the 15% surtax they whack you with if your earnings are anything above the poverty line? I'm anxious to find out.

[Squawk 8888]

There have been incidents of sick people being driven around from hospital to hospital up here in Ontario from time to time, that is definately no lie. The reason behind that had more to do with the Ontario gov't cutting costs in the 90's than anything else.

Those problems started happening long before the alleged "cost-cutting" took place. Also, during the late '90s while the usual suspects where whining about cutbacks the Province of Ontario was increasing health care spending by about 5% a year. The fundamental flaw is that people who think it's "free" over-use it and the only way to control expenditures is through rationing.

[Free the USA]

http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/bump-list

[IvanT]

I'll go with that I guess.

[429CJ]

"according to most polls, the support to public
healthcare among canadians is in mid 80%, and support for
adopting an american-like system is below 5%."

Most small children who are abused and beaten by their mommy and daddy say that everything is OK and want to remain with mommy and daddy.

It is well known that Canadians suffer from an inferiority complex (comparing themselves to Americans) and look for anything possible to be able to beat their chests and proclaim their superority to USA.

If it helps your self-esteem to feel pride in your medical
care then 'go for it'.

[Snowyman]

non-profit centres

Gee, can you name any non-profit centre providing MRI services other than government run ones?

study in Health Affairs Where did it say it was a government study? Ontario Health Coalition is hardly supported by the Government.

And why is it legal to buy an MRI for Fido but not for grandma

Check again . There are private MRI clinics in several provinces, including 20 in BC, Alberta and Quebec. One in NS and soon 20 more in Ontario. And the only place Fido can is in London at Lawson Research for a $1000 a scan

5% payroll tax that gets grabbed from my employer

Assuming you are referring to the payroll tax that employers pay, not you as an employee (if you think it's abolishment would give you an extra 5% gross , dream on). It's 1.95% in Ontario , not 5%.

If you're think you're paying too much , like the over 50% you said you do, to a system that does nothing for him. you need tax advice and a lesson on who pays for the society you live in. And the grand a year I fork over in tobacco taxes is easy. Quit.

[HHFi]

Hillary's Hollywood friends would have to get on a 15-year waiting list for facelifts, and their careers would be over.

[Protagoras]

Freedom-Shmeedom. Freedom good, socialism bad.

Freedom is good, and socialism is bad. That part you seem to understand. If you want to start the debate by telling this forum why socialism is good, get to it. I'll be happy to carve you up, comrade.

Here is another topic for you "debaters": Saddam Hussein -

Trying to change the subject before we even start is pretty predictable comrade.

And don't chock on each other's genitals

The genitals comment will probably get you booted, so stay away from that long enough so I can make you look like the moron you truly are. BTW, What does " chock" mean? Did you go to a commie school too?

As to what am I doing here, well, it's mildly amusing, so why not. Beats watching CNN.

As to amusment, better to watch CNN. They are boring to you because they are almost as leftist as you are, and that kind of childish crap is truly boring. And it isn't amusing, it's stupid, like your philosophy.

I know you are just trying to get booted so you can slink away like all lefties and claim you were kicked off the forum so you don't have to be shown up as an imbecile.

Before we start, learn how to format in HTML so you won't look as stupid as you are.

[D. Miles]

Your welcome, welcome to waiting on a list for up to two years for simple microscopic surgery for knee problems. This info out of the mouth of a Canadian that I chat online with.Your welcome to waiting six months to be fitted for a new knee brace for that knee. Your also welcome to come tothe USA for surgery if you have the money and can get here, my chat friend is alone, has no money and has no transportation, so, she waits.

Please don't speak for all in your country, not all are satisfied with the care they get! If all were satisfied, none would be boarding buses and coming over the border for care.

[Jim Noble]

>>What would Hillary's Hollywood friends do under Hillarycare?<<

Very good question.

Her political friends will go to Walter Reed or Bethesda. You can bet there will be a nationwide system of "Defense" hospitals open only to the politically well-connected.

George Clooney and Barbra pose a bit of a problem, however. The original Hillary! plan specified a $50,000 fine and five years in federal prison for doctors treating patients outside of the system.

If she keeps that in, my guess is that there will have to be maquiladora hospitals in Tijuana, Juarez, Nogales and elsewhere for the non-political elite.

I had the opportunity to lecture at the medical school in Bratislava about six months after the fall of communism. The hospital was incredibly dreary and underequipped. We then toured the "cancer hospital", which was beyond state-of-the-art. When I asked how come there was one hospital in the country that was so advanced, they told me that up until six months ago, it was the "special hospital" for Central Committee members and their families.

Such hospitals exist everywhere there is socialized medicine, and Hillary! will have to create them here for her friends after she destroys what we have now.

[Snowyman]

info out of the mouth of a Canadian that I chat online with

Do you know what province she lives in? Each is different.

My neighbour had his knee replaced in October. From his first visit with a specialist it took a little over 3 months. An 76 year old lady I know is having her hip done the last week in February. Her first consultation with the surgeon in Toronto was Dec 16th. Her surgeon does 10 a week Distances can be a problem. The lady I mentioned has to travel over 200 miles. Difficult for someone who has arthritis both hips and spine.

My father had cataracts removed from his eye in September and removed from his other eye last Wednesday morning. Because of his deteriorating eye sight in September he was faced with the very real possibility of losing his drivers license. He can now read the paper without his glasses. He doesn't have much choice. His old pair are out of focus and he gets his new pair next week.

Like you said, please don't speak for all in your country, That's true, but by the same token, for each unhappy patient needing treatment, there are thousands who are happy. Just like in the USA.

[E.G.C.]

Good points being made about this subject. Now here are my thoughts.

Under the plan being proposed by Hillary and the Democrats, people like myself seeking medical treatment, even for life saving procedures would have to seek the permission of nameless, faceless Washington Beureurats to undergo those procedures.

I can tell you if I had to seek this kind of permission, I would most likely be denied simply because of my outspoken criticism of the Democrat party's social and political agenda.

I'm afraid such a health care plan as what's being proposed by Hillary and her ilk would be politically biased against conservatives and christians and in favor of those loyal to the Democrats. Poltical loyality and not need would be what determines who gets medical treatment.

I'm afraid such a plan would do more harm than good for this country. The idea of Hillary controlling my access to health care and palying you know what with my life is something this conservative Reppublican does not find very appealing.
Regards.

[albertabound]

http://www.canoe.ca/CalgarySun/editorial.html
Read the above link before you pop off you brainwashed boob.

January 26
Muscle and blood
Federal strong-arm tactics won't improve health care
Talk about the wrong prescription.

In place of a transfusion of cash and innovation to help revive Canada's ailing health-care system, the federal government has thus far only rolled up its sleeve to reveal its muscle.

Political muscle, that is.

Health Minister Anne McLellan and Prime Minister Jean Chretien last week laid the groundwork for more wrangling between Ottawa and the provinces over this contentious issue.

McLellan set the tone for yet another political punchout when she insisted Ottawa will call the shots.

Then, in a letter to the premiers, Chretien warned that "electors want to see the prime minister and the premiers working together in partnership rather than trying to score political points against each other."

Then, perhaps Chretien's most galling, if not hilarious comment came when he talked about the benefits of accountability: "We need accountability and they need accountability. I do not know why someone would not want to be accountable. It just escapes me," Chretien said.

This from a leader who has run the most unaccountable, scandal-ridden government in the history of Canada.

Considering the explosive effect of McLellan's desire to exert federal control over health-care priorities, the PM's words were hypocritical.

McLellan's statement made it clear Ottawa will only pony up more dollars for health care if it dictates the terms.

This might sound sensible on the surface, except that the federal contribution to health costs has fallen from 50% to a piffling 14% today.

Massive cuts in the federal share of funding have largely been responsible for the deterioration of care in Canada.

As Ontario Premier Ernie Eves pointed out: "Health care is the No. 1 priority for all Canadians. It certainly has been the No. 1 priority for all governments except for the federal government."

Eves' dig hits the mark.

As services declined in all the provinces, the feds diverted the dollars that formerly funded health care into the gun registry, federal sponsorship boondoggle and other money wasters.

Now, after taking a long coffee break while the system got sicker and sicker, they want to rush in with an oxygen mask to save it -- but only, you understand, if certain conditions are met.

Meanwhile, the provinces increased health spending while cutting services just to make ends meet -- and Chretien has the gall to suggest they are wasteful and not accountable.

No wonder the premiers -- who meet with the PM on Feb. 4 to hash this out -- are red-faced with indignation.

The federal government figures that by waving much-needed health-care dollars in the face of the premiers, they will be forced to roll over and accept whatever conditions Ottawa wants to impose -- or face the wrath of voters.

Not that the federal proposals are completely without merit.

Greater emphasis on home care would take pressure off the entire system and benefit patients -- while offering a huge potential for savings.

Catastrophic drug coverage will also fill a gap that has emerged in medicare as families forced to pay for expensive medications have watched their life savings evaporate.

These and other proposals worthy of consideration are overshadowed by the fact that the provinces are having difficulty funding the delivery of basic health-care services -- much less adding new and costly ones to the mix.

Combine this with the reluctance of the feds to commit to long-term funding and it's no wonder the provinces are worried about being left holding the bag once again.

This smells like a ploy by the federal government to grab the glory for delivering "new" health-care programs while leaving the provinces the dirty job of delivering core services that have been underfunded for some time.

The feds get the credit for "fixing" health care while the provinces struggle to deliver in key areas because their hands are tied by the conditions attached to funding.

The provinces are also cynical about the federal plan to set up a joint advisory body on the national state of health care. The federal government should have a say, but only equal to the amount of funds it coughs up.

Of course, federal and provincial politicians want the same thing -- a comprehensive, effective system that's accessible to all Canadians.

To accomplish this and clear up the bad blood that has tainted the negotiations, they must abandon the muscle tactics and get out the scalpel.

The patient is in dire need of assistance.

---

[albertabound]

"if socialised medicine is failing in a small country such as ours, which hasn't really been proven" unfortunately, you like many other brainwashed Canadians will only wake up to the fact of the matter when you get sick and can't get medical treatment. My wife has been waiting for three years for a simple operation to repair a vertabrate, all the while her condition continues to deteriorate and she lives in pain.
I swear to God Joseph Goebbels has been reincarnated as an Ottawa press agent. Sh*t after that I think I need a Doctor.

[sausageseller]

Debate this:

Americans are subsidizing the Canadian health care system by paying more for perscription drugs. If it wasn't for the americans you would not have the low cost drugs you have!

[Snowyman]

Why? Could you be a little more specific ? But before you do you should know, if you don't already, that Americans consume 42% of the world's prescription drugs and pay the world's highest prices. Americans also use twice the amount of drugs per person that Canadians do and that prescription drugs are not advertised in Canada. These are facts,

The average annual cost per prescription of the 50 drugs used most frequently by seniors as of January 2001: $956.00

Amount of seniors lacking drug coverage for at least part of each year: 47%

Chance that an American filing for bankruptcy last year did so because of medical expenses: 1 in 2

Percentage change last year in the profits of Fortune 500 pharmaceutical companies: +35

Percentage change in the total profits of all Fortune 500 companies: –54

Mean after-tax profits for pharmaceutical companies in 2000: 18.6%

Mean after-tax profits for all other Fortune 500 companies combined: 4.9%

Amount prescription drug prices rose in between 1981 and 1999: 306%

Amount consumer price index (CPI) rose for the same time period: 99%

Amount pharmaceutical companies spend on profit: 18.6%

Amount pharmaceutical companies spend on marketing and administration: 30%

Amount pharmaceutical companies spend on research and development: 12%

Amount of new drug research and development sponsored by the National Institutes of Health (NIH) and other federal
agencies: 60%

Amount of new research the pharmaceutical industry is funding: 11%


Number of pharmaceutical lobbyists registered in Washington, DC: 600+

Number of U.S. Senators: 50

Number of U.S. Representatives: 435

[sausageseller]

You prove my point:

and pay the world's highest prices.

SS. I will say it real slow.

Americans subsidze your health care system.

If canadians had to pay the "real" cost of the drugs, Your system would be in total disfuncation!