Dennis Miller on Abortion

http://www.valleyskeptic.com/dm_abortion.html ^

[no other way out]

Now I don't want to get off on a rant here, because basically tonight's topic is a minefield - Abortion. I couldn't be anymore on tiptoes if the show was being produced by George Balanchine. This is the Big Debate, and I'm talking bigger than who was the better Darren on Bewitched. Abortion is our nation's "Final Jeopardy," and I'll wager, Alex, that if our nation fights another Civil War, it will be about this. And I would remind you that this all from my perspective, the male perspective, a one-step-removed perspective, because I will obviously never have to decide on whether or not I should have an abortion. And by the way, my belief is that if men were the ones getting pregnant, abortions would be easier to get than food poisoning in Moscow. Having men decide the fate of a woman's reproductive system makes about as much sense as asking Quentin Crisp to coach the Raiders. All right, enough qualifying, let's get on with it. There's no doubt that passions run high on both sides, and this issue has created a divide in this country not seen since Carly Simon last yawned in public. The prevailing opinions on a woman's freedom to choose are going further to the right than a Greg Norman tee shot.

Pro-life activists attempt to paint anyone pro-choice as having no morals. On the other side of the ledger, pro-choicers are tagging pro-lifers as crazed and backward bible-thumpers bent on running the lives of the people who disagree with them. The truth, as always, is, the case of human endeavors lies somewhere in between. As much as the advance scouts on either side of this issue might not want to admit it, good people do get abortions and other good people are pained by their decision to get one.

Where do I stand? Well, I'm like most of you, I presume, I think there are far too many abortions performed in this country. And I also believe that at the end of the day, as much as I might disapprove, none of them are really any of my business. Look, there are always going to be arguments on this issue. The debate will rage until the end of time no matter what the whim of the Papal infallibility or the politics of the decade. But the simple truth is, that such a passionate and personal decision dictates that the choice be left to the individual. And you know, that's really all we can do, because we're just human beings, stumbling around in the dark, trying to get to the bathroom and kicking the shit out of our shins on the way there.

Now there's some things all right-minded human beings should agree on. We should all agree that abortions should be legal in the case of rape, incest and when the mother's life is at risk -- that's just common sense. But excluding that obvious assumption, everything else in the abortion arena is "in play." There are many quagmires complicating this issue. Religion. Now it seems that religion is most often the backboard for every bank shot put up by someone making it their business to get into your business. Roman Catholic doctrine forbids abortion. Fine. Take that into consideration when you make your decision. Right-to-life proponents contend that abortion is immoral. Fine. Take that into consideration when you make your decision. Another pothole on the road to a sensible resolution to abortion is "when does life begin?" At conception? When a heartbeat is detected? At the first drawn breath? You know, for me it wasn't until last Tuesday. Until then I was just a sperm with an accountant! Okay, so those are the variables, and there are obviously millions more variables that make each individual case unique. But the more you think about it, and the more it makes your head spin, and the more confused you get trying to figure out someone else's life for them, it becomes increasingly apparent that it has to be the call of the individual who is pregnant, because the collective, one way or another, won't have to suffer the consequences of that most personal of all decisions.

My fellow Americans, it is time to suck it up. Look deep into your immortal soul (if you believe you have one) and do the right thing. Have the courage and strength to live your own life, by your own standards, and stop trying to call the shots for everyone else. We all live with glaring inconsistencies, and sometimes, when you see something going on right in front of you that offends you to the very core of your being, sometimes the best thing you can do is walk away, because you know that's exactly what you would want them to do for you. There's only one judge on all this and that's God. And you don't get to meet him until you go backstage after the play is over. And believe me, you do not want to get a "thumbs down" from the guy who created thumbs, all right? In the interim, everybody has got to tend their own garden vis-a-vis abortion. And remember, when it comes to your body, only you wear the robes, and only you carry the gavel.

Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[AppyPappy]

Does that mean you guys are going to shut up about drug legalization until you "Solve that dilemma, convince the court, & change history"?

[MJM59]

Thanks for opening your reply with an insult. I am afraid that I don't see the world in black and white. The Bible teaches Thall Shalt Not Kill. Pretty much a Pro Life statement that covers all of the bases. So, if you follow the teaching "thall shalt not kill," you would logically be anti abortion. But shouldn't you also be anti-capital punishment and anti-war? Killing is killing. That is black and white.

We bend the rules to cover capital punishment by saying that they are bad people who have it coming as punishment. But it is still killing. War kills on a massive scale, but it is justified as being used as last resort in order to save lives. But it is still killing.

Abortion, War, capital punishment. It is all killing that is justified by whatever rationale that those involved in it at the time care to use to suit their purpose.

Me, I am pro death penalty all the way. There are times when "Right To Life" needs to become "Responsibility of Life". But some people just do not deserve to live. Malvo/Muhammed are just two. Their Right To Life should be revoked.

I also believe that while "Give Peace A Chance" is a noble sentiment and highly desirable. It will never happen as long as the human race continues to disagree about the stupidest issues. Therefore, there are times when war is the only answer. The upcoming war with Iraq... Well, I am just not convinced that it is absolutely necessary yet.

Hussein, Hitler, Bin Laden. Wouldn't have been nice to be able to look into some sort of "Minority Report" crystal ball and see into the future before they were born. I wonder who would have been all for aborting those SOBs.

Now, I don't know when "life" begins, I have no idea when a human being obtains their soul. What I do know is that in a perfect world abortion would not be an issue. But look around folks, the world is far from perfect, and we are in no way as advanced, as civilized or as morally superior as we would think.

No matter what the government does concerning abortion. It will still go on. Women will just be forced to cross the border and go where it will be legal. So, nothing is solved, we as a country will just have this false feeling of moral superiority. Real change will take more than what any law can accomplish.

[tpaine]

"Yes but talking about dishes is irrelevant to the discusion. We are talking abortion."

Whatever sappy word game inanity turns you on, pappy.
187 tpaine


Always good to see you throw in the towel early, tp.


Always good to see you imagine that you even got near the ring, Pap.
Fight my actual words, not your silly illusions about what I said.

[My2Cents]

I doubt, seriously, - if 'soul' can be attributed to a life incapable of being self aware.

Do you have children, tpaine? We've had three, and four months ago we were blessed with our first grandchild. Babies don't have a concrete, or certainly an abstract, concept of "self" until they are months old. My wife and I still remember when the "light" went on in our second child, and he showed some evidence of self-awareness, where he realized he and we were separate entities. With such metaphysical considerations, are you suggesting that parents be allowed to kill their live, born, babies up until some time as they give evidence of self-awareness? Maybe you don't believe the Bible, but David wrote in the Psalms that God "formed my inward parts" while still in his mother's womb, and Paul said that God had chosen him to be an apostle to the church "from my mother's womb" -- imagine that: God choosing someone's life destiny and role even before they are born. There may not be conclusive proof of when a soul enters a person, but isn't it the better choice to decide that since we cannot know for sure, it's best not to make these distinctions at all, and respect life regardless of its stage along the human continuum?

[tpaine]

Does that mean you guys are going to shut up about drug legalization until you "Solve that dilemma, convince the court, & change history"?
- Ap Pap-

The solution is self evident, and solved. We are in the process of convincing the court.

Whats yours for abortion, Pap?

More prohibitions, like those for drugs & guns? - :

Connecting the War on Guns & Drugs [my title]
Address:http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/820965/posts

[Deb]

So, the degree of brain function determines the soul?

Is the soul a gradual thing?

Does the soul fade in as the brain gains function?

This is just a philosophical discussion so I don't have to solve anything, convince anyone or concern myself with history.

[tpaine]

Get a grip on you emotions, and quit the tar baby bull about 'killing babies'. Good grief.

[tpaine]

Beats me.

[This is just a philosophical discussion so I don't have to solve anything, convince anyone or concern myself with history]

[MissAmericanPie]

How about not asking us tax payers to support murder with our tax dollars, how about not making us an unwilling accomplice? That would be a start.

[LearnsFromMistakes]

today in america - Abortion is ok because 'it isnt human'.

1800's america - Slavery is ok because 'they are sub-human'.

I don't think the analogy is that difficult to grasp.

1930 germany - It is ok to kill jews becuase they are sub-human.

Quite a theme developing here....

[Deb]

In the original Hebrew, the word "kill" in "Thou shall not kill." translates "Thou shall not murder." Hebrew has many words to describe a thing and there are several for "kill". There are also several for "love". One word means brotherly love. Another one means parental love and another means romantic love, etc.

When the the translators translated the Bible into English, they obviously had to pick just one English word for these various Hebrew words.

People who use the Bible to justify their arguments frequently make this mistake.

[Deb]

Wow. Fabulous post. Those Bible quotes are perfect. Good for you.

[My2Cents]

Your callousness is disturbing.

[tpaine]

The truth usually hurts.
- Thats why educating our stubborn young is so painful for them.

[BeAllYouCanBe]

I saw this on a web site called mugshots. I went there today and it didn't work or at least had the celebrity section removed. They showed a picture of Dennis in the slammer.

I'll research this and get back to all involved.

[FreeReign]

So, the degree of brain function determines the soul? Is the soul a gradual thing? Does the soul fade in as the brain gains function? This is just a philosophical discussion so I don't have to solve anything, convince anyone or concern myself with history.

I believe those are scientific questions, not philosophical.

[thisiskubrick]

Sorry, I am not clear on what you are saying. As killing a child is not advocated (A) and nobody wants to ban condoms (B), where lies the point that abortion is illegal(C)? Are you stating that the use of condoms is a method of abortion? Please explain. Thanks.

I'm putting condoms at one end of the spectrum, just to give a starting point on the continuum from procreation to birth. I guess you could only call it abortion once the egg has actually been fertilized. You could argue that a "morning after pill" is abortion.

I'm sure there are people here that thing "morning after" pills should be banned, but I don't. I personally (and arbitrarily) draw the line after 1 month of pregnancy.

[thisiskubrick]

Conception is the beginning of life for a man or woman. It can not be stopped, only ended. Abortion is murder. No other word for it, period.

So I take it that you're against "morning after" pills? Is it still murder if it's just a single fertilized cell? I can understand the position, although it's not my own.

[Deb]

The last sentence in my post was a response to his claim that I had to do those things and had nothing to do with my questions to him. It's not possible (for you) to jump into the middle of a discussion without reading the whole discussion.

[thisiskubrick]

So you think that human life begins beteween the 30th and 31st day of pregnancy because that feels about right to you?

That's where I draw the line. Although, thankfully, I've never been in such a situation.

I definitely don't have a problem with a "morning after" pill, or anything like that in the first week.