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President to speak at 4:30 about Affirmative action..

Posted on 01/15/2003 1:13:13 PM PST by Dog

President to speak shortly...


TOPICS: Breaking News; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: affirmativeaction; bush; quotas; racism; racists; reverseracism
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To: r9etb; Dog; All
C-SPAN I will repeat the speech ABOUT 8 p.m. ET per their schedule...
281 posted on 01/15/2003 3:03:14 PM PST by Molly Pitcher (Demolish the Criminal Party!! NOW!!)
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To: EternalVigilance
Thanks, I saw that somewhere and loved it. I would suggest that everyone add that whenever discussing the representative of Homestake Mining. Who knows, might take off.
282 posted on 01/15/2003 3:03:30 PM PST by engrpat
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To: Dog
It is a matter of historical record that the landmark civil rights legislation of the 1960's was passed only because the authors of those laws made it clear that they were not to be used to support racial quotas. Bush is merely endorsing the intent of the laws as passed, and the Supreme Court should do so as well.
283 posted on 01/15/2003 3:17:45 PM PST by Steve_Seattle
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To: r9etb
You know from your own dealings with people of races other than your own (I'm assuming you do know people of different races?) that they quite often have different points of view than you do, because they have lived in a different culture from you.

I don't see what this has to do with race. A Swede or Chinaman's culture is far more different from mine than an African American's is likely to be. We don't import opinionated foreigners so we can get their perspectives, even though it would be a far more efficient way of getting diversity.

If you introduce those different points of view into a college class, then the quality of classroom discussion can, and probably will, be better than if the class consisted of kids from the same racial and economic background.

Maybe. Or maybe the ideas will be trite recapitulations of what they've heard in the media.

In any case, it really depends on the field. I don't give a tinker's damn what my students' ideas are on the Second Law of Thermodynamics. They're either correct, or incorrect (or, most likely, they've never heard of the second law), but it really doesn't matter; they can either learn and learn to apply the second law, or they can fail the class. So can we dispense with 'diversity' in the sciences?(please!)

The idea that a group of immature youngsters, sitting around and expressing almost completely uninformed opinions on a subject of which they know next-to-nothing, amounts to education is a comical one, when you think about it. Sure, there are some pedagogical purposes to a Socratic method of teaching (IMNSHE, it's a good way of keeping 'em awake), but Socrates, AFAIK, never asked Phoenicians into his class to provide a 'non-Greek' perspective. I doubt Socrates would have believed ideas depend on origins.

284 posted on 01/15/2003 3:20:46 PM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: engrpat
All this talk of DI-versity; if it were SO good, then why are our institutions of higher learning called UNI-versity?

That's always puzzled me.
285 posted on 01/15/2003 3:22:38 PM PST by EggsAckley
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To: Howlin
"Jesse brought up reparations"

If Bush had come out in favor of the University of Michigan's policy, I have no doubt that Jackson would still have found some reason to disagree with him. Quite possibly, he would just have raised the ante and blasted Bush for not supporting reparations.
286 posted on 01/15/2003 3:27:09 PM PST by Steve_Seattle
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To: Right Wing Professor
The fellow asked me to give examples. I did.

Your comments offer very little, one way or the other. As for importing foreigners, I initially had that in there, too, but decided to leave it out: this is a discussion about American citizens.

Your second comment is useless. "It might, or it might not." Speaking from personal experience, it does offer a better discussion.

You're of course speaking as a technical guy -- which says a lot more about you than it does about the quality of, say, an ethics class.

287 posted on 01/15/2003 3:38:21 PM PST by r9etb
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To: Ditto; Howlin
I think W is counting on us using King's words every time one of the Rat race-bating pimps pipes up.

He can't be everywhere at once, but WE certainly are!!

288 posted on 01/15/2003 3:42:33 PM PST by SuziQ
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To: r9etb
Your comments offer very little, one way or the other.

Thanks. I could have added that importing black kids into a class to provide a 'minority' perspective is patronizing and demeaning. They're there to learn, just like anyone else. Personally, I'd resent being categorized as having certain ideas or even a different 'perspective' because of my race.

You're of course speaking as a technical guy -- which says a lot more about you than it does about the quality of, say, an ethics class.

My philosopher friends tell me that ethics is a technical subject too. Students can sometimes help each other learn or understand, though that's better done outside a formal classroom setting; but I don't expect them to come up with valid ideas in ethics that Kant might have missed.

I was around in the eighties when the whole 'diversity' scam was being formulated. I literally watched it happen. It's a blatant attempt to get around race-blind, equal treatment policies based on merit, and a way to grab power for identity politicians who can then dole out preferences to their particular sub-groups, be they black, hispanic, women, homosexuals, or whatever.

289 posted on 01/15/2003 3:54:52 PM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: Guillermo
This was a great statement by Bushie. Straight and to the point. And it appeals to the ideals of a merit driven society even in circle where you think that might not be the case.
290 posted on 01/15/2003 3:55:51 PM PST by swarthyguy
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To: Dog
Dude .......stop your worrying me.

LMAO !!!!!!!
291 posted on 01/15/2003 3:56:03 PM PST by cmsgop ( I am not gonna see Lord of the Rings Jhoffa !!!!!!)
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To: MeeknMing
Thanks for the post, meekie...
292 posted on 01/15/2003 4:09:48 PM PST by nicmarlo (I am NOT in denial; I am NOT an FR addict; I am NOT in denial; I am NOT an FR addict :)
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To: Right Wing Professor
I oppose to affirmative action and any other form of racism. Period.

Nevertheless, achieving diversity by other means, such as using the top-20-percent-of-the-class approach we have in Florida universities. This way a “redneck trailer trash” student who is smart and college material has the same chances as a black student with similar background.

I had a better education by being exposed to people of different races and different ethnic backgrounds. When in college, I became friends with people who I might never get a chance to meet again. I spend weekends with college buddies from Bahrain and Saudi Arabia, and I learned quite a bit about Muslim culture. Those experiences have tempered my reaction to the Muslim extremism and terrorism. I know Muslim guys who lived up to their religion best ideals and shunned blind anti-Americanism.

Therefore, I will not question the worthiness of a diverse student body, as long as the students are being recruited in a fair and intelligent manner. I had a friend, Ron, who never interacted with black people before going to college. He was not a racist, but he definitively had weird views about blacks. For some reason, the fact the college students learn to share stressful experiences together can create a great environment to interact with people from different backgrounds. As a business executive, those experiences gave me invaluable advantage in my career.
293 posted on 01/15/2003 4:15:35 PM PST by LO_IQ
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To: TLBSHOW
you're correct TLBSHOW; the president's pollsters have advised him that he's slipped badly among the conservative portion of his base. So, finally he takes some action. That's my opinion.
294 posted on 01/15/2003 4:47:38 PM PST by Red Jones
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To: Karsus
do you think that GWB has done everything he can do to protect us from more terror attacks?

Yes I always have said that and now Ann says it too! below!


The Department of Justice has disrupted terrorist cells in Buffalo, Portland and Detroit. It has won convictions or guilty pleas from about 100 people in terrorism-related crimes. Almost 500 potential terrorists have been deported. The arrest of a former roommate of two 9-11 hijackers led to 40 more arrests in a visa fraud scheme. Over 200 airport workers in the Washington, D.C., New York City and Dallas airports have been arrested for document and immigration fraud. At the Dallas and Newark airports, scores of workers were charged with alarming schemes to obtain access to high-security areas of the airports.

The war isn't over, and it won't be until the malarial swamps are completely drained – something else the Democrats oppose. But whatever happens tomorrow or the next day, it is worth reflecting on the fact that there hasn't been anything approaching the 9-11 attack for 16 months now. That's not a bet many people would have taken on Sept. 12, 2001.

Ann Coulter
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/823409/posts?page=
295 posted on 01/15/2003 4:57:09 PM PST by TLBSHOW (Free Republic The #1 Stickest site on the web where the hardest part is clicking away...........)
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To: r9etb
You know from your own dealings with people of races other than your own (I'm assuming you do know people of different races?) that they quite often have different points of view than you do, because they have lived in a different culture from you. This holds true, also, for people from different economic backgrounds.

If you introduce those different points of view into a college class, then the quality of classroom discussion can, and probably will, be better than if the class consisted of kids from the same racial and economic background.

I have extensive experience with all socioeconomic and racial strata, personally and professionally.

Your justification(s) of "diversity" are nonsense, and patronizing racist nonsense, at that.

Obviously, many people have different points of view than I do. My life and my intellect have ben immeasurably enhanced by exposure to many points of view.

I do not, however, subscribe to the notion that because someone is black that they are more likely to have a "different point of view" than a white person. This is a glaring example of stereotyping, ascribing an intellectual or political opinion to someone because their skin is different than yours.

How can you possibly know what is someone's point of view before you know them? For shame!

296 posted on 01/15/2003 5:10:21 PM PST by Jim Noble
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To: Jim Noble
Your justification(s) of "diversity" are nonsense, and patronizing racist nonsense, at that.

What -- you're saying that people from different racial, cultural, and socioeconomic backgrounds don't look at the world differently?

That's hopelessly out of step with what your own experience should have told you.

Your loud protestations and silly accusations are proof enough to me that you know you're wrong.

297 posted on 01/15/2003 7:12:01 PM PST by r9etb
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To: Right Wing Professor
I could have added that importing black kids into a class to provide a 'minority' perspective is patronizing and demeaning.

You're dodging the point again. Nobody said anything about "black kids" except you.

My comments made no such distinction. However, real life experience tells us that racial, cultural, and socioeconomic background does influence how people approach life. Such a diversity of views in a college setting can and often does provide a richer experience for all involved, which makes it something to be desired.

You, however, apparently do not want to admit this possibility, which explains the irrelevance of the rest of your post.

As we all agree, a desire for diversity does not justify quotas, nor does it justify wholesale discrimination. But it does give an admissions department something else to think about and strive for.

298 posted on 01/15/2003 7:19:59 PM PST by r9etb
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To: r9etb
Nobody said anything about "black kids" except you.

There are two major recipients of preferences in the US: blacks and hispanics. We were talking about race, not ethnicity, so that rules out hispanics. AHA! traps are not an honest way to argue.

However, real life experience tells us that racial, cultural, and socioeconomic background does influence how people approach life. Such a diversity of views in a college setting can and often does provide a richer experience for all involved, which makes it something to be desired.

I've disputed that. Repeating it over and over doesn't strengthen the point. My experience (and I've been in colleges of one sort or another for the last 30 years) tells me otherwise. I think it makes next to no difference. If it were really true, proponents of diversity would not have to spend so much time repeating it.

As I said already, I teach science classes. I've taught at every level from General Chemistry and 'Science for poets' courses to advanced graduate courses. There mare few enough 'underrepresented' groups in these courses to begin with. I've seen no evidence that the non-white, non-Anglo kids made any more of a conribution than the white, Anglo kids.

You, however, apparently do not want to admit this possibility, which explains the irrelevance of the rest of your post.

It's not that I don't want to admit the possibility; it's that I've looked at it and discarded it. As, for example, have several of the Conservative organizations involved in the Michigan case.

By the way, if the post is irrelevant, you need to show it's irrelevant. Just repeating the same claim does not add to the argument.

299 posted on 01/16/2003 8:13:10 AM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: r9etb
>>That's hopelessly out of step with what your own experience should have told you<<

Now, this is the second time you have posted an argument about what my experience should have taught me.

This is an unanswerable argument-I can only discuss what my experience has actually taught me. I cannot accept that I should argue from the premise of your opinion about what my opinion should be.

My extensive experience has taught me to reject your premise that persons from minority backgrounds are different from me, so different that by virtue of their background, without reference to their actual human selves that they will provide me with experiences, insights, and "points of view" not otherwise obtainable.

This is racist garbage, and that's all it is. I am an educated man, and nothing human is alien to me. It is much more stimulating to interact with others, be they black, red, brown, yellow, or white, who have something to say rather than to pat myself on the back about how broad my social interactions are because I hang out with dark-skinned people.

Do you realize how inferior you must actually take black folks to be-that your projections have taken the place of their actuality?

For you, they are all Invisible Men, whose reality is submerged in your psychological projective system.

300 posted on 01/16/2003 9:16:45 AM PST by Jim Noble
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