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U.S. Uncertain on Citizenship for Cloned Babies
Reuters | 12/30/02

Posted on 12/31/2002 4:27:21 AM PST by kattracks

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The prospect of someone seeking a U.S. passport for a new-born clone exercised minds at the State Department on Monday, but the experts appeared at a loss on how they would handle it.

"In the hypothetical situation of a cloned baby, this would be a new situation. Therefore, at this time we would be unable to determine how U.S. laws regarding nationality would apply to this child," spokesman Philip Reeker told a daily briefing.

"That's a situation that is a case of first impression," he added, using legal jargon for something unprecedented.

The possibility of a passport arose because of reports that a 31-year-old American may have given birth abroad to a clone of herself and was heading "home" with her infant girl, Eve.

A State Department official said issues of parentage and nationality could arise with a clone, especially if the child and the woman who gave birth were not genetically related.

The U.S. Food and Drug Administration said last week that implanting a cloned embryo in a woman would be illegal in the United States without its approval.

Reeker said that if an American parent met certain requirements, a child born abroad would automatically become a U.S. citizen and could immediately obtain a U.S. passport. Even infants require passports to enter the United States.



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1 posted on 12/31/2002 4:27:21 AM PST by kattracks
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To: kattracks
"..."In the hypothetical situation of a cloned baby, this would be a new situation. Therefore, at this time we would be unable to determine how U.S. laws regarding nationality would apply to this child," spokesman Philip Reeker..."

What an idiot...

Created using a citizen's DNA...

Carried to term by a citizen...

Born to a citizen...

That makes the clone a citizen you moron, even if they were born on Mars... DUH!

Sensing that he'd revealed his stupidity in full flower, Reeker adds...

"...Reeker said that if an American parent met certain requirements, a child born abroad would automatically become a U.S. citizen and could immediately obtain a U.S. passport. Even infants require passports to enter the United States..."

Although this contradicts Reeker's earlier profession of confusion on the subject of clones who might someday vote, it incorporates sufficient 'Control Content' to warm his bureaucrat’s heart...

It's an unspeakable tragedy that the taxpayers of this country are out of pocket at gunpoint to pay the salary of village idiots like this.

2 posted on 12/31/2002 4:47:37 AM PST by DWSUWF
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To: DWSUWF
Well, if the "clone" is delivered in the USA, it is an American citizen. Maybe it doesn't work like that in other countries, but it seems pretty straightforward to me relative to the USA.
3 posted on 12/31/2002 5:24:30 AM PST by Wonder Warthog
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To: Wonder Warthog
"...Well, if the "clone" is delivered in the USA, it is an American citizen..."

Agreed...

'Born in the USA' is a slam dunk.

Native-born clone? You're a citizen... Maybe a cutting-edge-weird citizen, but a citizen nonetheless.

The tempest in a teapot here stems from the purported clone's birth in a foreign clime... To a US citizen.

We pay these idiots to do their job, with sufficient intelligence and clarity of mind so that they don't go into a loop when presented with a new wrinkle of (what will someday be known to be) fairly minor proportions.

Human cloning will happen, even if this story turns out to have been bogus.

It's not the Xeroxing of a mind or a soul. It's merely the encore of a genome.

It's just technology, gadgetry... Not an evil (like Abortion) in and of itself.

The smart monkeys will stay as far as they can ahead of the curve and try to maximize the good while minimizing the evil that flows from it.

4 posted on 12/31/2002 5:36:23 AM PST by DWSUWF
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To: DWSUWF
There is something very wrong with attempting to make a copy of one's self. The danger is that the cloned would try to impose her personality on the clone.

Aside from the repugnant genetic manipulation this allows, I think it wise to understand that the last time this debate surfaced, about 2 years ago, a huge number of people seemed to think this was a swell idea, since they would have SPARE PARTS!

I can foresee an industry of clone centers where the clones are kept in case they are "needed."

The cult that supposedly has produced this child speaks of transferring one's memory and personality to the clone, in an effort to attain immortality.

All in all, human cloning should be banned.

5 posted on 12/31/2002 5:43:21 AM PST by Miss Marple
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To: DWSUWF
Children born abroad to two US citizen parents, one of whom has resided in the US prior to the birth of the child, continue to be US citizens at birth, and need take no special actions to retain citizenship.

Children born to one citizen parent and one foreign national will obtain citizenship at birth if the citizen parent resided in the US for five years before the birth, with two of those years after the age of 14. The child does not need to take any special action to retain US citizenship.

Children born out of wedlock to a US citizen mother will be US citizens if the mother resided in the US for one year prior to the birth of the child.

Children born out of wedlock to a US citizen father will acquire US citizenship if the following conditions are met:

  1. There is an established blood relationship between the father and the child,
  2. The father was a US citizen at the time of the birth,
  3. The father has agreed to financially support the child until it is 18, and
  4. Before the child is 18 it is legitimated, or the father acknowledges paternity in a document signed under oath

6 posted on 12/31/2002 5:50:59 AM PST by Procyon
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To: Miss Marple
"There is something very wrong with attempting to make a copy of one's self.

Why? What exactly might that be?

"The danger is that the cloned would try to impose her personality on the clone."

Why is this any worse than what any parent(s) does?

"Aside from the repugnant genetic manipulation this allows, I think it wise to understand that the last time this debate surfaced, about 2 years ago, a huge number of people seemed to think this was a swell idea, since they would have SPARE PARTS! I can foresee an industry of clone centers where the clones are kept in case they are "needed."

So make THIS illegal--not that doing so will totally prevent it, but it will reduce it.

"The cult that supposedly has produced this child speaks of transferring one's memory and personality to the clone, in an effort to attain immortality."

They are nuts.

"All in all, human cloning should be banned."

Sorry, case not proven.

7 posted on 12/31/2002 6:04:53 AM PST by Wonder Warthog
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To: Miss Marple
Read Jack Vance's excellent short novel To Live Forever...
8 posted on 12/31/2002 6:05:32 AM PST by boris
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To: DWSUWF
"We pay these idiots to do their job, with sufficient intelligence and clarity of mind so that they don't go into a loop when presented with a new wrinkle of (what will someday be known to be) fairly minor proportions. Human cloning will happen, even if this story turns out to have been bogus. It's not the Xeroxing of a mind or a soul. It's merely the encore of a genome. It's just technology, gadgetry... Not an evil (like Abortion) in and of itself."

BEWARE!!! You are injecting rational thought into an emotional argument area. DANGER, WILL ROBINSON, DANGER!!!

Seriously, your last point is my SINGLE reservation about cloning--that it will foster abortions of the "extras"--although I "do" think that the current efforts are premature and a rush to get into the history books. I would prefer to see a lot more animal research done before trying anything with humans.

9 posted on 12/31/2002 6:08:40 AM PST by Wonder Warthog
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To: DWSUWF
Created using a citizen's DNA...

Carried to term by a citizen...

Born to a citizen...

Sadly, that's the same thinking that allowed Samuel Sheinbein to get away with murder here in Maryland. Despite never having set foot in Israel, he claimed citizenship through his father, who himself hadn't set foot in Israel in 20 some years.

10 posted on 12/31/2002 6:16:25 AM PST by YourAdHere
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To: Miss Marple
I don't agree with much of what you say, but you said it with some attention to detail, so it's worth replying to.

"...There is something very wrong with attempting to make a copy of one's self..."

This is simply your opinion, not an objective truth.

That being said, the chief motivation for producing a clone of oneself WOULD seem to be an exercise in hubris, which -if not 'wrong' per se- is at least tacky.

"...The danger is that the cloned would try to impose her personality on the clone..."

While possibly, maybe even probably true, this is no different a burden that that endured by virtually every son of a successful man since the dawn of time.

"...Aside from the repugnant genetic manipulation this allows, I think it wise to understand that the last time this debate surfaced, about 2 years ago, a huge number of people seemed to think this was a swell idea, since they would have SPARE PARTS!..."

'Spare Parts' will happen. And the technology to produce individual, genetic match organs will far outstrip what cloning could bring to the table.

Within a generation, those who produce such repair parts will shake their heads and chuckle at the notion that anyone would have ever considered the possibility of producing a clone to supply a liver, or a heart.

If your Buick's left headlight shoots craps do you buy an identical Buick just to 'cut out' its left headlight?

Of course not.

And neither will the organ builders.

"...I can foresee an industry of clone centers where the clones are kept in case they are "needed."..."

Why spend billions of dollars using a wasteful method, AND swim against the tide of history and morality, when you can spend a few hundred thousand to achieve the result elegantly, and be praised as a servant of mankind?

No one will ever do what you fear, on a widespread commercial basis. Simple economics will prevent it from being a acceptable option.

Honestly, you paint an image of a world where every identical twin should be wary of their sibling, lest they be targeted for 'organ harvesting' by their evil twin.

"...The cult that supposedly has produced this child speaks of transferring one's memory and personality to the clone, in an effort to attain immortality..."

Yes... If the technology to copy, or move, personalities from one brain (cloned or otherwise) to another is ever developed a can of worms will be opened by it.

But that isn't what we're talking about.

Cloning is nothing more, and nothing less, than the simple encore of a genome. Embryos that divide to form identical twins do it in the womb all the time. It's not the Xeroxing of a mind, or the duplication of a soul.

There may come a time when the red-meat argument is whether or not to simply transcend our biological bodies, not whether to utilize a clumsy, ancient 'lifeboat' paradigm, maintaining existence through an endless chain of fragile organic bodies, any one of which can be destroyed unexpectedly.

For those ambitious enough to pursue physical immortality, or something close to it, cloning is ultimately a dead end.

"...All in all, human cloning should be banned..."

Before we pursue the unachievable chimera of banning this means for the creation of new lives we should first ban the wanton destruction of lives through the form of murder called abortion.

History is a steamroller for those who hold up their hands and demand it to stop.

11 posted on 12/31/2002 6:36:36 AM PST by DWSUWF
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To: Miss Marple
Kind of hard to ban ALL human cloning. Ever see identical twins ? Natural Clones. (The egg split apart after fertilization, and implanted in two or more locations in the womb).

As for "spare parts", the inevitable end of cloning research will likely be the ability to clone individual organs. As for your Clone Spare Parts scenario, it's been done in various types of SF for years: I remember a "Sliders" episode about the topic. . .

AS for the Raelian Cult, they have a serious case of crainial-rectal inversion. . . .
12 posted on 12/31/2002 6:38:25 AM PST by Salgak
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To: Procyon
My remarks are not meant to suggest that written regulations facilitating the bureaucrat's illusion that he's 'on top of things' exist now...

Of course they don't.

Cloning, especially Human cloning is a cutting-edge concept.

The regulations will emerge... But there cannot be an FAA without the Wright brothers to do something REAL first.

My point here is that, until that gibberish gets penciled in, I expect my over-paid bureaucrats to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time.

13 posted on 12/31/2002 6:48:49 AM PST by DWSUWF
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To: kattracks
"In the hypothetical situation of a cloned baby, this would be a new situation. Therefore, at this time we would be unable to determine how U.S. laws regarding nationality would apply to this child," spokesman Philip Reeker told a daily briefing.

Sheesh! What morons! Is it any wonder things are going so badly in the world with folks like Philip Reeker and those he represents running things? The citizenship of a child is determined by the citizenship of the woman to whom the child was born and/or the location of the child's birth, NOT the means by which the child was conceived or otherwise brought into existence. They should also be talking about whether a baby conceived and born in England from donated American sperm is to be awarded American citizenship. There are plenty of identical twins, triplets, and quadruplets that have citizenship and have no problem getting a passport, yet one, two, or three of them are clones of the original zygote.
14 posted on 12/31/2002 6:49:07 AM PST by aruanan
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To: YourAdHere
"...Sadly, that's the same thinking that allowed Samuel Sheinbein to get away with murder here in Maryland..."

And you have a more appropriate paradigm for bequeathing the valuable commodity called citizenship?

15 posted on 12/31/2002 6:54:30 AM PST by DWSUWF
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To: DWSUWF
While possibly, maybe even probably true, this is no different a burden that that endured by virtually every son of a successful man since the dawn of time.

Ha ha. I think I said the same thing to Miss Marple about 2.3 years ago:
Recently on ABC TV morning news some guys were talking about the implications of cloning. The talking head asked the scientist type what would be the worst-case scenario. The scientist type said that it would be if some narcissistic individual had copies made of himself and exercised control over them.

Whoopie, like that doesn't happen already! It's called parenthood, the only difference being that instead of the offspring having half of his genome from each of two parents he has all of it from one.

But cloning already happens spontaneously. In the case of identical twins, one literally is the clone of the other. Sometime after fertilization and usually before implantation, the developing human individual casts off a varying number of cells which, after further growth and implantation in the uterus, continue developing into another individual (or individuals) which is more or less genetically identical to its forebear. One of the twins did not develop directly as the result of a sperm/egg combination but at a later stage from the original individual. So much for those talking about soul-less automatons of human flesh stalking around as a consequence of cloning. In one case it already happens by chance in utero as opposed to under controlled conditions by design.

Anyway, the scientist type, in his pontification, seemed to believe that if one person comes from another then it is owned by the progenitor which somehow has a right to oppress it. Even parents don't have the right to do that, at least after birth, and people don't have a right to own slaves no matter where they come from.

Some have spoken as though the very purposefulness of a deliberately made human clone would somehow, in and of itself, confer upon the maker powers over it which he otherwise would not have had if the cloning had occurred ‘naturally’ or ‘accidentally’. Hmmmm, and the individual conceived accidentally as a result of multiple failed contraceptive devices is to be accorded higher status than the one whose nearly-infertile parents tried for years and spent much money in order to be able to conceive him? The accident is afforded the full panoply of human rights but the planned-for and chosen is available for body parts? As absurd as this sounds for an individual ‘naturally’ born having two parents, the situation is no different for an individual who is cloned. He still has two genetic forebears, just through the intermediary of another individual, as in the case of identical twins. The manner of his coming into existence still takes back seat to the fact of his existence. It lies in the fact of his existence, like that of anyone else, not in the manner in which he came into existence, that he is endowed with inalienable rights.

Questions such as "Just what does this mean about being human?" are irrelevant at this point since this is all still a matter of doing by technology what is already done in nature. People can start asking these questions when someone does something really spectacular like whipping up an entire individual human genome from scratch, placing it in an artificially made cell, complete with artificially-made cellular components, and then generating a person from it, growing it in an artificial womb. Of course, it would still a matter of nature, human beings, accomplishing the same end, reproduction, by different means, a form of asexual in vitro budding.

16 posted on 12/31/2002 6:55:33 AM PST by aruanan
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To: aruanan
"...Anyway, the scientist type, in his pontification, seemed to believe that if one person comes from another then it is owned by the progenitor which somehow has a right to oppress it. Even parents don't have the right to do that, at least after birth, and people don't have a right to own slaves no matter where they come from..."

This is the central unfairness lurking at the heart of cloning...

If I clone myself I get a lazy, willful SOB who will ignore my commands...

And, being younger, be able to whip my ass in a fight...

Where do I go to get MY slave?

17 posted on 12/31/2002 7:12:33 AM PST by DWSUWF
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To: DWSUWF
Where do I go to get MY slave?

The Muslim part of Sudan?
18 posted on 12/31/2002 7:27:35 AM PST by aruanan
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To: DWSUWF
No, I just like pointing out ironies.
19 posted on 12/31/2002 7:33:40 AM PST by YourAdHere
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To: aruanan
"...The Muslim part of Sudan?..."

A slave from the sweaty crotch of the world?

Thanks, but no thanks.

I'd rather see a younger version of myself going out the door with my fishing pole in one hand an a one-finger salute aimed at me with the other after being told to rake the leaves.

20 posted on 12/31/2002 7:34:56 AM PST by DWSUWF
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