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Right to Choice vs. Choice for Men
Woahhs

Posted on 12/28/2002 10:16:36 AM PST by Woahhs

For the past thirty years abortion advocacy has made its legal stand on a single, popular, concept; women should have the right to choose whether or not to give birth. This concept can similarly be summed up with one wildly successful slogan: my body, my choice. It's a very powerful claim, and has withstood thirty years of strident opposition.

With two generations of women brought up having this doctrine woven into the very fabric of their psyches, there is as much chance of eliminating abortion in America as there is of repealing the Second Amendment, and with similar consequences. The vast majority of the American people have made peace with the idea that human life begins with the first breath, and not before. Many despise this doctrine in word, but accept it in practice.

The pro-choice dogma is a tremendous windfall for unprincipled women. They gain the new privilege of deciding whether or not to accept maternal responsibility while retaining the old prerogative of compelling paternal responsibility, with both options codified into law and supported by the coercive power of the state.

At present there is no mechanism in place to cause women to modify their sexual behavior; which is the ultimate determiner of an unwanted pregnancy in a civilized society. To argue that abortions should be curtailed without accepting some abbreviation of women's current range of choices is to betray the preference of "choice" over "life."

It should be clear to any fair-minded observer, if abortions are to be curtailed through policy, it will be on the basis of a politically popular competing claim rather than a reversal of the existing policy. Furthermore, this competing claim should rest on the very same ideological underpinnings as pro-choice politics, thereby taking advantage of philosophical formulations the pro-choice advocates already approve.

"Choice for Men" is that competing claim. It is nothing less than the full repudiation of paternal responsibilities without willful, legal, acceptance of those responsibilities by the potential father. Of course such a notion will elicit horror and outrage from most women and not a few men, but recognize it is the exact mirror image of what women embraced thirty years ago, and have lived with quite peaceably since.

In very real terms, women have collectively repudiated any responsibility for bearing children unless they choose to, so denying the privilege to men is simple bigotry.

Many pro-life women will oppose "Choice for Men" arguing that it would encourage even more abortions as women who "thought" they would receive aid from the sperm donor learn they must shoulder the responsibility alone.

This is a specious argument. It assumes women should be under no obligation to modify their sexual behavior. Furthermore, it presumes the moral superiority of the woman, completely ignoring instances where the man convinces the woman to reject abortion as an answer.

Finally, putting forth such an argument is the worst sort of philosophical terrorism, because it gives respectability to one who would hold the child's life hostage unless certain demands for security are met.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Philosophy; Your Opinion/Questions
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To: Jeff Gordon; Woahhs; Orangedog; rdb3
Abortion is murder.

True. And I don't support C4M being actually instituted into law. I do support putting a gigantic spotlight on the issue of C4M as often as possible...because the debate about the issue is critical to shocking pro-abortion women out of their "I can have my cake and eat it too!" gyncentric, lesb-oedipal, male-bashing dreamland.

61 posted on 12/29/2002 9:04:15 PM PST by Z in Oregon
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To: babyface00
First, no consensually-conceived baby should be aborted at any point post-conception over the objections of the baby's father.

Second, it is awfully sexist of you to presume that the mother will be the primary caregiver of the baby post-birth.

62 posted on 12/29/2002 9:07:25 PM PST by Z in Oregon
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To: Woahhs; Chancellor Palpatine
It's all about who gives birth if they want to justify abortion; it's all about who causes pregnancy if they want to justify paternal extortion.

True. Do you dispute that, OPH?

63 posted on 12/29/2002 9:09:48 PM PST by Z in Oregon
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To: crystalk
Surrender for yourself only.
64 posted on 12/29/2002 9:11:04 PM PST by Z in Oregon
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To: Jim Noble
Concur
65 posted on 12/29/2002 9:14:25 PM PST by Doctor Raoul
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To: Chancellor Palpatine; Z in Oregon; Paulus Invictus
After reading your profile page, I have to wonder why you would characterize those of us who fight for full rights for men as "He-Man, Real Man, Women Haters' "? As a woman who expresses herself as a masculinist, I resent the stereo type.

You should read a book called The Myth of Male Power.

In page after page, chapter after chapter, Farrell reveals mind-boggling facts that show that, contrary to the claims of the 'victim-feminists', women get preferential treatment in many areas of society, and that, as the title of the book indicates, men's power is a myth. Example: statistically, men make up far larger numbers of prison inmates. Is this because men are innately more criminal? Or is it because (1) women are considered less as suspects in crimes? or (2) women suspects do not usually receive the same degree of interrogation as male suspects? or (3) courts are far less likely to convict a defendant found guilty if that person's gender is female? or (4) a woman's prison sentence is likely to be significantly shorter than a male's for a comparable crime? or (5) when women have a male 'partner in crime', the male invariably takes the rap?

If men are the powerful sex, why do they make up 6 out of 7 suicides? Why do we accept that men, and men only, being sent in vast numbers to die in war? Why are 9 in 10 workplace deaths males? Why does breast cancer research receive over six times the funding that prostate cancer research does? Why do women live longer?

66 posted on 12/29/2002 9:16:22 PM PST by farmfriend
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To: Woahhs; Nick Danger; Lorianne
I think infanticide for the service of "payback" is closer to monstrosity...

That sums up why abortions happen: to hurt men. Aborting babies is the feminist version of the Oedipal Complex, lesbian undertones implicit thereto.

67 posted on 12/29/2002 9:16:33 PM PST by Z in Oregon
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To: Jim Noble; Woahhs
No marriage, no responsibility.

Good call.

68 posted on 12/29/2002 9:18:16 PM PST by Z in Oregon
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To: laredo44; Brad's Gramma; homeschool mama; JMJ333; Aunt Polgara; Judith Anne; SpookBrat; carenot; ...
So let's say we have a biological father who wants the legal right to veto the abortion of his prenatal child, and is willing to take care of all the bills in perpetuity and raise the kid 24 and 7?

Then what?

Still kill?

69 posted on 12/29/2002 9:21:18 PM PST by Z in Oregon
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To: Z in Oregon
Nope.

No kill.

Not ever. Sorry folks.....I'm really really black and white on this one. (I'm not REALLY sorry....) There's probably not a single case where the mother's life is in danger, thanks to our modern technology.

Adoption's a great thing. I think PP should try it! Heck, they could make some LEGITIMATE money, since this is ALL they are about anyway!!!!!!!!
70 posted on 12/29/2002 10:59:10 PM PST by Brad’s Gramma
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To: Brad's Gramma
*** There's probably not a single case where the mother's life is in danger, thanks to our modern technology. ***

First of all, I agree with your post in its entirety. No killing....ever.

About your comment above...My life was in danger while later in my pregnancy. I was in the hospital for 2 weeks, on a fetal monitor, an amnio and bio-physical ultrasound to determine my baby's maturity and health...all the while *my* vitals were being monitored quite invasively..when seizures became a great threat and organs were threatening to shut down, they performed an emergency c-section. Thankfully our baby was healthy and born alive 5-1/2 weeks early. I was in ICU for 3 days but my life was saved. I'd do it all over again for the life of my child.

With the current PP and liberal wheel mandate, I guess I could have ended my pregnancy by a late term abortion. How very sick, evil, vile and inhumane.

71 posted on 12/30/2002 7:13:30 AM PST by homeschool mama
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To: Z in Oregon
I meant to include you in my post #71.
72 posted on 12/30/2002 7:13:59 AM PST by homeschool mama
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To: Z in Oregon
First, no consensually-conceived baby should be aborted at any point post-conception over the objections of the baby's father.

"Consensually-conceived"? Do you mean conceived via consensual sex, or conceived consensually? While I don't personally have a problem with that in either case, and I'm personally opposed to abortion, we have the situation where both parents took part in this crapshoot and made a baby. If the woman wants to abort, which is her (currently) legal right, and the father doesn't, then I'm saying

1)whoever wants the baby gets sole custody and responsibility and

2)we should recognize the pain and suffering a mother goes through bringing a baby to term. If the father, or a charity, or potential adoptive parents, are willing to compensate the mother for that (which I'm certain would happen in many cases), then she becomes a surrogate for the father or other party. Once born, she's out of the picture. No abortion, no custody battle, no power struggles.

If neither wants the child, or no one wants to compensate her for going through the pregnancy against her will, well, then I'm sorry but my proposal doesn't address that. I think this number would be greatly reduced and isn't that a start?

Second, it is awfully sexist of you to presume that the mother will be the primary caregiver of the baby post-birth

I'm only assuming that is the way it is now. Is that not a valid assumption? I hardly think its sexist to make an observation. I'm proposing that whoever wants the child gets sole custody and sole responsibity. If the other doesn't want the child, then he/she is out of the picture after birth. If they both want it, then the current custody system kicks in. If they marry, its a non-issue.



I don't think anyone can argue that women don't have complete control over whether or not they get pregnant. They control whether sex happens, they know if the man is using a condom or not, and they have access to several flavors of birth control.

I just think its time that they have a little shred of responsibility for the actions they're taking. Killing the baby or forcing the father to pay financial support isn't taking responsibility. This is a life we're talking about. Once we start treating it as such, I think we'll get pregnancies and abortions down.

Lets say your a woman in college and you're less than responsible sexually. What's the downside to getting pregnant now? A couple hundred bucks and you're "problem"'s gone. Decide you want to keep the baby and you get welfare for yourself, and child support from the father.

What I'm proposing is that you can't count on that anymore. Be irresponsible sexually, and you may have to take the baby to term because the father wants custody AND you don't get a say after the baby's born. Keep the child, and you're on your own. The alternative is to share custody with the father, or DON'T GET PREGNANT and avoid all of this.

We need to make it so there's a real possibility, or probability that pregnancy will result in childbirth, and that you can't count on abortion as a way out. Is there another way to get these girls to exercise some degree of control (exercise "choice"!) over their bodies?
73 posted on 12/30/2002 7:20:27 AM PST by babyface00
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To: Woahhs
At present there is no mechanism in place to cause women to modify their sexual behavior; which is the ultimate determiner of an unwanted pregnancy in a civilized society.

There is no mechanism in place to cause men to modify their sexual behaviour. Furthermore, biology, not society, determines the rules of procreation. Biology dictates that it take exactly one man and one woman to procreate.

This is a specious argument. It assumes women should be under no obligation to modify their sexual behavior.

At present, men have no obligation to modify their sexual behavior either. Until both parties to conception have equal incentive to modify their sexual/procreative behavior, we will continue to have social problems arising from unwanted/unintended conception. Abortion is only one manifestation of social problems arising from procreative issues. There are many others.

The focus should be two-fold: conception prevention and obligations toward the child, for both parents, after conception.

74 posted on 12/30/2002 9:07:20 AM PST by Lorianne
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To: Jim Noble
If that were still the law, unmarried women would lack the power to compel men's financial responsibility for their poor choices

Here we go again. Women make "poor choices" but the man making the same choice (to have sex) is off the hook. Typical neo-Conservative version of "personal responsibility" a.k.a. passing the buck.

75 posted on 12/30/2002 9:10:38 AM PST by Lorianne
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To: crystalk
Or men could take responsibility for themselves and just learn how to say "no" in 165 languages.

Of course, presenting men as a "victim" of sex is so much more rewarding isn't it? By the way, are you going to be leading the movement to be surgically castrated?
76 posted on 12/30/2002 9:18:56 AM PST by Lorianne
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To: Woahhs
... it's all about who causes pregnancy if they want to justify paternal extortion.

I'll help you out since you are scientifically challenged. Men and women equally "cause" pregnancy.

77 posted on 12/30/2002 9:21:22 AM PST by Lorianne
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To: Woahhs
The pro-choice dogma is a tremendous windfall for unprincipled women. They gain the new privilege of deciding whether or not to accept maternal responsibility while retaining the old prerogative of compelling paternal responsibility, with both options codified into law and supported by the coercive power of the state.

Well said.

78 posted on 12/30/2002 9:25:50 AM PST by jimt
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To: babyface00
So we have a situation where consensual sex between adults no longer has to result in pregnancy, and pregnancy no longer has to result in childbirth.

First off, conception is the default consequence of sex. There is no contraception that is 100% effective. Even sterilization is not 100% effective.

Secondly, about 75% of women either do not morally/ ethically believe in abortion, or cannot go through with an abortion in the final analysis. We know this because of the documented ratio of births to abortions. Therefore, you are presenting inaccurate information that implies that MORE women have abortions than acutally do.

Your view of women's "options" is deliberately inaccurate. Just because abortion is available does not mean women are compelled to choose it. And they don't in large part. The vast majority of pregnancies are brought to term which means women don't abort as often as you would mislead us to believe. Your propaganda is showing.

In addtion, your choice of words belies your true agenda. Your phrase "no longer has to result in childbirth" is prescriptive. It advocates more abortions than actually occur presently.

79 posted on 12/30/2002 9:35:40 AM PST by Lorianne
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To: babyface00
What's your plan for getting men to excercise some degree of control over their bodies?

80 posted on 12/30/2002 9:37:48 AM PST by Lorianne
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