Engineering Grad Looking for work -- Where are the Jobs???

Engineering Discussion Board 12-27-2002 ^ | FR Post Christmas 2002 | Various

[vannrox]

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AskMen.com Message Boards     > Career, Power & Money         > New Engineering grad: Are there any jobs??
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j455b2 Registered User Posts: 158 (8/28/02 11:18:30 pm) Reply	New Engineering grad: Are there any jobs?? Hi I finished my electrical engineering studies in the month of may. Before the end of my studies and until now, I have been actively looking for a job. I havent had much success, just 2 interviews. Most of my fellow graduates are in the same situation. I live in Canada where the job market is supposedly better than in the US presently. But when I hear that companies like Nortel laid off 60 % of their workforce and are going to lay off 7000 more people, I start to wonder: Who the hell is gonna hire a recent graduate if so many experienced ppl are available?? I am not desperate yet but I cant say that my resume is rock solid. I had decent grades but my work experience related to the field is obviously lacking. I try to compensate with my course work etc... What is sad is that just 2 years ago, these same companies were literally hiring by the truckload! 45k CAN $ (which is a lot of money in a city with low cost of living like Montreal) for entry-level engineers. In 2 months I am going to start to apply all over the country and "exile" myself . Is that the only way to get a first job? Start off in some kind of small shop in Saskatchewan??
a lady now Registered User Posts: 408 (8/29/02 8:49:50 am) Reply	Re: New Engineering grad: Are there any jobs?? Electrical Engineers are in demand in the states. You should have no problem catching on if you come here. Look at Monster.com and you will see
energyaz Registered User Posts: 2289 (8/30/02 3:36:24 pm) Reply	Re: New Engineering grad: Are there any jobs?? Electrical Engineers are in demand in the states - Yes they are. So much so that most of them are being hired out of India or the middle east cause these guys will work for pennies. Why hire an American or Canuck and pay them $60k + when you can get one from a 3rd world country who will do back flips for $30k? Sad, sick and lame. I cant stand it -Energy who works onsite at Honeywell aerospace....and 80% of our engineers are foregin nationals. I am embarrased and worried that if we keep outsoursing our white collar workforce from India and Pakistan...our economy and future is shot Congrats on your graduation!! Good luck! I wish you the best! I would be soooooo happy if Honeywell started hiring Canadians over Indians.....not a racial thing, but lets keep the jobs avail to the people who are actually FROM this hemisphere!
Audio58 Registered User Posts: 1 (9/9/02 12:02:08 pm) Reply	Engineering positions Yes there are many engineeing positions availible in the US, but they all require 3-5 years experience. I worked for an RF semiconductor company for 13 years while attending school at night. I received my Electronic Engineering degree in 2000, and got a job as a design engineer, but was laid-off at the end of 2001. I have been unemployed now for almost 10 months.
GQ Chris Registered User Posts: 783 (9/9/02 6:42:12 pm) Reply	Dude, here's an idea to get hired.... Move to India, learn to like curry chicken and kabobs, and apply for Indian citizenship. Then apply for an American engineering position, you might get a better shot then. Its pathetic, and somebody's got to put a stop to all this outsourcing of labor.
ryanjb2 Registered User Posts: 1378 (9/9/02 8:26:30 pm) Reply	Re: Trying to emigrate to India? They'd laugh you right out of the embassy. Immigration only goes one way in this world.
lovetolearn Registered User Posts: 2073 (9/10/02 9:26:53 pm) Reply	err... ryan, GQ Chris was being facetious in his comment regarding emigrating to India. His reason, of course, is that there are so many INdians in computers and engineering right now, and that clearly bothers him.
ryanjb2 Registered User Posts: 1393 (9/11/02 1:32:26 pm) Reply	Re: I know, and I was utilizing his comment to insert a political commentary. I do this all the time, some find it annoying....
GQ Chris Registered User Posts: 810 (9/13/02 10:07:53 am) Reply	Re:What really sucks is Talented American Engineers become.. S.O.L. when it comes to finding full time technical work, that actually pays them what they're worth. Really blows away the traditional theory that if you want a good paying job, you've got to work hard in school and get a degree. Nowadays, there's no stability at all, its just a fight for survival, and very limited opportunity. Now more than ever, companies are focusing on cutting down expenses(ie. employees) and maximizing profits.
j455b2 Registered User Posts: 171 (11/3/02 10:36:02 pm) Reply	its me again I'm the original poster. After working as an electronics tech for the last three months at 9$ an hour (well its not really a tech job, more like electronics assembler but anyway) I decided to enroll in the army. They supposedly offer a 40 000$ (canadian) enrolment indemnity to engineering graduates but I guess its not for all candidates. Anyway I'm not going for the money but Its been 6 months I graduated and I am far from obtaining an engineering position It looks like the only place I'll get that is in the army... I just read an article in an employment paper today stating that electrical, computer engineering and computer science are the most unpopular degrees with employers these days... Even the job placement guy from my college said in the article that electrical engineering graduates are the worst hit.
C4S Registered User Posts: 105 (11/7/02 12:22:02 am) Reply	It comes and goes It's all a cycle. Hopefully in a few years everyone will need engineers again. It all depends on who's working on what and how ambitious you are. For instance, when I start working in the space industry, I'll be able to give you guys lots of jobs! CS
GQ Chris Registered User Posts: 1074 (11/7/02 11:18:23 am) Reply	re: jobs I'm still considering changing majors, I'm about halfway through to getting my Bachelor's and my current major is in Business with a focus on Computer Information Systems, I am thinking about changing it to Management. I mean what's the use of taking C++ and Jave programming classes, when upon graduation these jobs will be too few and far between. I don't know what to think now, I read in the paper that the economy has been making improvements, and then the next morning I'll read that the economy is going to take more time to make a full recovery.
wsux Registered User Posts: 1 (11/19/02 11:06:04 pm) Reply	Labor Mobility and Declining Wages Hi guys, I was going through your posts and I must admit that they make interesting reading. I am from India and I think I can offer some new perspective on the issue of labor mobility. First of all, I think trade in labor is just an extension of the so called process of globalization. Declining wages are nothing more than a manifestation of the simple law of demand and supply. The only way qualified people from foreign countries can be prevented from taking up jobs is by erecting artificial barriers on the movement of labor. But this is never, and I repeat, never going to happen in the US considering the clout that businesses command and the rewards they reap by hiring cheap labor. Second, without prejudice, I do believe that engineers from India who take up jobs in the US are superbly qualified. I am an engineer from the university ranked first in India and third in Asia - the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT). Students are admitted to the IIT's on the basis of entrance examinations. Can you guess the number of candidates who appear for approximately 2,500 seats? The figure is over 4,00,000. That's right - 4,00,000 candidates for 2,500 seats. Which selection process in the US is so competitive? But securing admission to one of the six Indian Institutes of Technology is comparatively easier - getting into one of the top Business Schools is even more difficult. My Business school - the Xavier Labor Relations Institute is ranked fourth in India. In the year I got into in, over a hundred thousand candidates appeared for 65 seats in their Business Management program (I have heard that they have increased the number of admissions to 140 since). The typical selection rate for most good business schools in India is no more than 0.07%. That's right - 7 in 10,000. Compare that with 15% for Wharton (Source: bwnt.businessweek.com/ft_...hools=520) It is guys who have gone through such gruelling elimination processes who finally end up in the US. It is not surprising that about 50% of the IT businesses in the silicon valley is owned by Indians (per Clinton's own admission!). Just one more (a trifle unrelated) statistic about the selectivity of examinations in India. One of the most sought after jobs in India is that for the Indian Civil Service for which over 3,00,000 candidates appear for fewer than 350 seats in the unreserved category. I joined this service in 1995 and my rank at the end of the selection process (comprising a set of preliminary exams, the main examination comprising two non overlapping subjects at the masters level, exams on general knowledge, essays and personal interviews totalling a whopping 2,200 marks) was 313 (yup, just made it). To say that selection processes in India are tough would be an understatement. Despite my best efforts to the contrary, I have this nagging feeling that I am giving an impression of beating my own drum. Sorry abt that folks, but some facts were necessary to put matters in perspective.. Oh and just a quick word on Indians working for measly salaries. I don't think that's true. I don't think any Indian engineer will come all the way to the US to work for $9.00 an hour. That no company will sponsor an alien (god bless whoever devised that wonderfully expressive term) for that salary is a related issue. As about me, I have been nominated by the govt of India to serve at the IMF on the condition that I get a Ph D in Econ. So at present I am slogging at a US univ pursuing my Ph D in Econ. Don't worry guys, I won't be usurping any of your jobs.
gxeric Registered User Posts: 861 (11/20/02 10:10:47 am) Reply	re They have colleges in India!?
mike1117 Registered User Posts: 194 (11/20/02 11:08:13 am) Reply	college You better hope they do. Otherwise it'll be high school students taking "your" jobs.
Go Blue 99 Registered User Posts: 119 (12/9/02 9:17:08 am) Reply	- Hell yeah there are colleges in india...they have engineering and business schools that are on par with top schools in the US.
Marcus137 Registered User Posts: 1 (12/9/02 4:27:31 pm) Reply	Labor Mobility and Declining Wages Well! I guess that it's time to give ourselves up, boys! Looks like the Indians have won! But seriously, just because a vanishingly small percentage of a population can endure extraordinary academic torture doesn't mean that they're any better when it comes to the nuts and bolts of genuine human creativity. In fact, most times you wind up worse for the torments through a loss of human objectivity. An example - I have a wonderfully fast and capable PC which could probably eat most anybody's lunch when it comes down to raw cataloging, computational, and retrieval power. And, there are millions like it out there, all around the world. But not one of them WILL EVER be able to replace the cross-colossal innovation machine present between any healthy person's ears. The point - America didn't become the place it is now through the hard, manufactured world of sheer academic expression and test scores. Rather, it has always been driven by a culture which values the full spectrum of human expression, and innovates through a healthy balance of academic experience and genuine creative leisure. This is true excellence. Our history testifies to its power. Where we abandon this right balance to cultures which do not embrace any such values, we will see ourselves losing our very souls to a cold, hard, unnatural existence of intellectual and academic slavery. But take heart all, it will come back around. Somewhere, someone will get just enough grant money to "explore" this issue, and bring our culture back to its roots. Why, they'll even discover that it's good for business! Till then, keep hoeing your row and have recourse to God. Pax.

[TruthNtegrity]

I'm going to reply to your query but first I'm going to don my flameproof suit. Those of us who believe, and have experienced being "downsized" because of the H-1B glut of programmers and engineers in America, mostly from India and Asia, are usually flamed mercilessly.

Let me say that I think there is something amiss in economics in America, something about not being able to raise prices due to labor increases because the Fed. Chairman, not-so-affectionatly named "Greenie" by some of us, will yell and stomp his feet about INFLATION and PRICE GOUGING.

Therefore, companies have had this conundrum. They can't raise their prices for labor increases, they can't raise their prices (or very little) for increase cost of goods, so they have to keep labor costs down. They have chosen to do this, either using the H-1B program or by sending the work overseas.

matloff@cs.ucdavis.edu - This is the email address of Prof. Norm Matloff who has testified before Congress on the impact of H-1B's on American programmers and engineers. I do not currently have his website address but a quick email to him will get it for you.

Basically, he has written that because of the H-1B's, American programmers are expendable by the age of 35, and engineers by the age of 40. I actually was able to stay employed until I was 50 but then I, too, hit the brick wall. My salary is too high, I won't work 60-70-80 hours a week without compensation, and they won't hire me because they think I will run up their healthcare costs and be absent too much.

So, I am unemployed and uninsured, and healthy as a horse. I can run circles around any of the H-1B's that they hire instead of me, but they don't care. They can hire one to do the work, and a second person to check and correct it, and they are still ahead of the game because they get so much overtime out of them. Why? Because H-1B's are scared to not work the excessive overtime lest they be let go, because until last year when Congress so fortuitously changed it, they had to start the Green Card process over again, and their clock to stay in the US would run out before they got their damn Green Card.

Everytime those of who know about the abuses of the H-1B bring it up, we are flamed with "racist" charges, or that immigration is how we got to being the great Country we are. I am not a racist, and America is full. Americans are having so few children, that we are now 50% Hispanic, and letting more people in from Arab Countries than we should be, given this 9/11-post USA. I happen to believe that we should close the doors to America for 5 years, while the INS figures out who is here, whether they belong here, and ships those who should be shipped back to their Country of origin.

Look at some of the threads on FR where Britain and the UK are reported to be losing their "character", and their typical "British citizen". Arabs have overtaken that Country and the landscape is distinctly different. The typical Pub character doesn't exist any more. The same type of thing is already happening in the US. Remember, Muslims believe in outpopulating rather than conversion. Their birthrates are incredibly high, compared to the excruciatingly low rate of Americans, British and EU.

Sorry you chose engineering. I am as well. My Dad would never believe a NASA engineer would become unemployable. Wish I'd stayed with Pre-Med and become a Doctor.

Good luck to you.

[USMMA_83]

I'm sure supply and demand will cure this practice. When the word gets around in India that you'll make 30K and work like a slave, the supply for this company and others like it will dry out.

[Stavka2]

Wrong. Because they are coming out of worse conditions. By the way, what do you think happens to these same guys when they are no longer on the H-1b visas? They get fired and then the next wave is brought in for their slave treatment. How about this, we'll give all Gurka's citizenship if they serve in the SF for 5 years but at half the pay...now we can get rid of all those over paid E-6s with super egos and get some real work done. Sound fair?

[USMMA_83]

You said..."Wrong. Because they are coming out of worse conditions.

Well if that's true than 30K for 60 hrs a week is a godsend for them. Sorry you have to compete against him.

[Stavka2]

Convinient of you to ignore the same arguement on the miliary. So how about it, shall we do the same for the military? Only fair and with less education being needed, there will be no shortage of takers and we can save defense dollars too.

[USMMA_83]

If the joint-chiefs felt that we needed that option, I am sure it would be considered. Better than that, we would probably make Nepal a trusted allay and ask them to supply a contingent of 5000 Gurkas to patrol NW Afghanistan. This way we do not even have to pay them 20K per head.

[2banana]

How about this, lets start importing Gurkas and Spetsnaz who will work for $20,000 and put all those over priced US NCOs out of work...sound fair? Maybe you can get the analogy.

You want mercenaries fighting for this country - go for it. They are, for sure, cheaper. They just have the tendencies of changing sides or going where the money is better at the wrong time.

[tom h]

Vannrox:

You seem like a nice fellow but I suppose you should have anticipated the reaction to your impulsive complaint. Yet, as a middle-aged technical man I can sympathize because I was in the same boat 20 years ago. Perhaps my short story will help.

I graduated from Stanford and Princeton with masters-level training in aerospace engineering. Yet, there was no work for me when I was about to graduate. The nation was in the middle of the recession induced by Carter-era economic policies, and although Paul Volker's tough medicine to tame inflation was starting to work its magic, virtually no companies were hiring. I had friends with PhDs in Chemical Engineering -- the hottest field nary four years earlier, when all these bright boys and girls decided upon a technical field -- who were going home to stay with mom and dad because they would have maybe one interview and no job offers.

This nearly happened to me, but I couldn't stand the shame. So I hustled around and looked for anything that was remotely related to a technical field. I found a job in Philadelphia with a technical consulting company and I took it. It was a medical company but I didn't care -- all work is honorable in the eyes of God and I had been raised well enough that if I had to dig ditches to provide for myself, I should not be ashamed to do it.

And, I had the time of my life for two years. The company was great and the people I worked with were wonderful. I learned things there that I have never experienced again. I am still in touch with the company President and some of my lifelong friends worked with me from 1982-84. And, as is inevitable, the ecomony took off in 1983 and 84, and I did move on and take a position in my chosen field. At age 46 I am now a business development executive with 22 years under my belt and a love for the aerospace industry.

If I can make a suggestion, don't run around being angry at the immigrants. All it does is poison your heart and make you less employable and perhaps more likely to be let go once you do find a job. [Meaning, you will be unable to distinguish your anger at the foreigners and will promptly get the boot!] Our immigration policies are a travesty yet this is the Government's problem, and your best response is to vote Republican and then get on with your life. And that means getting yourself legitimate and worthwhile work.

So, my friend, do not lose hope! Find something and develop a love for this work until the market improves and you can get a technical job that you desire.

Good luck and God bless.

[E. Pluribus Unum]

All industries are cyclical, some more than others. The computer industry has had some really good "good times," therefore it stands to reason it would have some really bad "bad times."

IT wil come back. People who position themselves for the rebound will do well, but it may take a few years.

[eleni121]

Upgrade your skills! Unless of course you are a unionist which in that case you just have to breathe to maintain the "job"

[A. Pole]

Let me say that I think there is something amiss in economics in America, something about not being able to raise prices due to labor increases because the Fed. Chairman, not-so-affectionatly named "Greenie" by some of us, will yell and stomp his feet about INFLATION and PRICE GOUGING.

"Greenie" or "Grinchspan"?

[maxwell]

I don't think these boys are lookin' in the right places for employment. I am graduating with a Ph.D. in applied physics, and every place I want to work has available positions out the wazoo for engineers of all stripes and stages. Don't talk to ME about can't-find-a-job...

[taxcontrol]

Tom H,

----
don't run around being angry at the immigrants. All it does is poison your heart and make you less employable
----

Amen.
Some added words of wisdom for those looking for jobs

Don't expect your degree to do much for you other than get an interview. A degree, like a certification, only means that you have passed the "cut" from the HR person.

In today's market, recruiters are FLOODED with resumes. Most are not even close to the required background. So what is an HR rep to do? Use technology to simplify the search. Looking for a degree or certification or required skill / background is done with a search engine. That is the 'first cut'. It is designed to weed out those that don't meet the requirements. Maybe it is not fair but then again, neither is life.

If you do get an interview, use your best interviewing skills. The the interview is the only chance the persond doing the hiring will EVER have to judge how you will fit in their organization. You only have one shot - treat it as such.

Also, remember that you will NEVER get paid what you are worth. Your pay range will always be constrained by two things.

On the upper end, you will never be paid more than what it costs to replace you. That is just cold hard business economics. So, always bring more value to your company that what it costs them.

On the lower end, you will never be paid less than what the company feels it needs to retain your skills in that position. So again, bring more value and the bottom will grow as well because as you bring more to the company, the company will want to retain you.

[Dutch Boy]

Even during huge downsizings most larger companies are still hiring for certain position. BTW - Who in this day and age doesn't keep an up to date resume and have at least several potential jobs lined up? When you have a plan in place you can act while the rest are scurrying around trying to remember what they have done for the last 20 years.

[PatrioticAmerican]

"lets start importing Gurkas and Spetsnaz who will work for $20,000 and put all those over priced US NCOs out of work...sound fair?"

Nice analogy. Actually, wouldn't a Gurkas word for $8,000 or less? LOL!! Overpriced American SF NCOs! Love it!

[Mr. Bird]

The H1B issue is one of the most misunderstood processes on Free Republic.

#1 Misconception: H1B holders are "cheaper" than U.S. citizens. Completely false, and possibly quite the opposite. With virtually no exceptions, an H1B immigrant is working in an occupation side by side with U.S. citizens. No company is hiring strictly H1B's. Because of this, the employer is BOUND BY LAW to pay an equitable wage to the non-citizen. In other words, if the U.S. citizen with 3 years exp makes 50k, then the H1B with 3 years gets the same. If the H1B has more experience, they get paid more. Add to this the administrative costs of sponsorship and there is no cost savings whatsoever. (And no one can provide a convincing argument regarding the dilution of the labor pool, unless you can convince me that all IT, Healthcare, and related jobs are just cookie-cutter jobs that are equal)

#2 Misconception: Because the jobs aren't in my backyard, they aren't anywhere. Unlike foreign nationals, many U.S. citizens do not consider relocation, due to family or personal reasons. Well, relying on a local economy to fulfill your career ambitions is risky. The more flexible you are with location, the more opportunities there are. Take a look at the biggest users of H1B and their locations. Would you move there? If so, apply for a job.

#3 Misconception: We all have an inflated sense of worth. Sometimes the money you find insulting is the true market value of your talents. Deal with it.

[Cogadh na Sith]

2 Misconception: Because the jobs aren't in my backyard, they aren't anywhere. Unlike foreign nationals, many U.S. citizens do not consider relocation, due to family or personal reasons.

Yeah, why can't we just suck it up and relocate to Mumbai, Calcutta or Rudraprayag where the jobs are--you'll learn to enjoy eating curry, washing in the polluted rivers, worshipping Shiva, and wiping your ass with your left hand.

[Mr. Bird]

Listen, chookter, it's not my fault you live in NM. Ever consider another state?

[USMMA_83]

These idiot programmers think that just becuase they can contruct an if-then-else condition in C++ they deserve 100K. Go get a life!!

[Cogadh na Sith]

I've got a great job here--big national labs and lots of defense contracting work for the Air Force.

I'm here by choice as are a lot of H1-B's. Salaries are generally lower than national average here, but so is the cost of living (unless you want to live in Santa Fe or Taos).

If the third-world pestholes are so freaking great, how come they are all coming freaking here?