Keep reinforcing that stupid, destructive idea.
No offense, but how on earth can anyone on this board really have true feeling of defeat to the hands of the Union? I dont feel victorious vicariously through my ancestors.
Posted on 12/27/2002 6:50:38 AM PST by yankeedame
Friday, December 27, 2002
Lincoln statue won't be embraced by all
The Associated Press
RICHMOND, Va. - Abraham Lincoln is returning to the capital of the Confederacy, much to the chagrin of the Sons of Confederate Veterans.
Five days before the Civil War ended in April 1865, the president and his youngest child, Tad, traveled to still-smoldering Richmond soon after Southern forces abandoned the city in flames. On April 5, 2003, the 138th anniversary of that visit, a bronze statue of the pair commissioned by the United States Historical Society will be unveiled at the Civil War Visitor Center of the National Park Service.
"Here is a national hero, a small boy, and a beautiful city by the James River, all united again," said Robert Kline, chairman of the nonprofit group society, which works on behalf of museums and other groups on projects of historic and artistic value. "This time Lincoln's in Richmond for all time."
Richmond, home to towering statues of Confederacy figures including Robert E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson and J.E.B. Stuart, was abandoned after Union forces led by Gen. Ulysses S. Grant attacked on April 2, 1965.
The Sons of Confederate Veterans view the Lincoln statue as "a slap in the face of a lot of brave men and women who went through four years of unbelievable hell fighting an invasion of Virginia led by President Lincoln," Brag Bowling, the SCV Virginia commander, said Thursday. The group had only recently learned of the statue, and had no immediate plans to protest.
The life-size statue by sculptor David Frech will show Lincoln and his son on a bench against a granite wall. The words "To Bind Up The Nation's Wounds" will be etched into a capstone.
This is all very much tongue in cheek, by the way. I don't see what purpose is being served by putting the statue in Richmond and the posts here show that the odds are that the statue will be vandalized. Lincoln's memory deserves better than that.
No. I'll let my personal bigotry against racists stand on its own.
No offense, but how on earth can anyone on this board really have true feeling of defeat to the hands of the Union? I dont feel victorious vicariously through my ancestors.
Racists?!! We are well past that pretense. You don't care a whit about racism.
No outrage expressed for freckled racists; and it was not racist musicians that you referred to as "Inbred Morons". It is a hatred for the South which you sell, and to which you are devoted.
You can't explain your reason, you just "think it". You act based on feelings, not rational. For most, this is the trademark of a liberal. For me, it is the earmark of a child still struggling over what he thinks; not yet bothered with why he thinks what he does.
There is something you need to consider....at least the Klan are proud of their bigotry. You hide yours behind a cowardly pretense of fighting racism.
You hate the South for no explainable reason, just because you "think it", and the herd is large enough to give you comfort. Grow up and have the guts to say so.
I did not use a direct quote for the first reference you made, as you well know. I made a statement of fact, the wording of which came from the Ken Burns Civil War series, episode 7 if I remember correctly. Personally, I did not like the production, but I thought you would find it acceptable as a source. Douglass's anti-Lincoln stance in the beginning of the 1864 election and his dis-satisfaction and downright frustration with Lincoln are well known. As to Douglass saying Lincoln was prejudiced, you know I used a direct quote to support that position. We exchanged very specific posts about it. You even followed up by quoting more Lincoln statements from the same speech. How soon you forget. Just for fun, here are some MORE quotes from Douglass about Lincoln from that same speech:
"It must be admitted, truth compels me to admit, even here in the presence of the monument we have erected to his memory, Abraham Lincoln was not, in the fullest sense of the word, either our man or our model. In his interests, in his associations, in his habits of thought, and in his prejudices, he was a white man."
"He was preeminently the white man's president, entirely devoted to the welfare of white men."
"I have said that President Lincoln was a white man and shared the prejudices common to his countrymen towards the colored race. Looking back to his times and to the condition of his country, we are compelled to admit that this unfriendly feeling on his part may be safely set down as one element of his wonderful success in organizing the loyal American people for the tremendous conflict before them, and bringing them safely through that conflict."
"Though Mr. Lincoln shared the prejudices of his white fellow countrymen against the Negro, it is hardly necessary to say that in his heart of hearts he loathed and hated slavery."
These are not all the statements of Douglass from that speech discussing Lincoln's prejudice, and you know it. Douglass went through a litany of specific accusations covering the course of the war. He did say nice things as well, it was a memorial dedication. But as I'm sure you also know, Douglas made it clear at the end of that speech why he thought their monument to Lincoln was important. And it was not for Lincoln's memory. I'm not saying Douglass hated Lincoln, far from it, so don't go down that twisted path. I'm only pointing out how false it is for the Lincoln cult and their revisionists to use a few Douglass statements from here and there to 'prove' Lincoln didn't believe what Lincoln himself professed. There are far more Douglass statements proving their imagined wish false than true. Historical perspective is everything and I wish the Lincoln cult (which has obviously misled you) would get some.
The word "nice" was obviously my personal summary of the treatment referred to in the quote, and I stand by it. Your use of ONLY, however, was completely incorrect in all regards, as I have already demonstrated. If it makes you feel any better I will point out an error in one of my previous statements. I said Douglass temporarily supported the Democrats in 1864, when in fact it was the Radical Republican running against Lincoln that he supported. The Democrats selection of a pro-peace platform is what made him change his mind, as he and many other Radicals did not want to take any chances on McClellan getting elected. Douglass was a Radical Republican through and through, which explains his constant frustraction with Abe and his criticism as well. Of course, that doesn't mean he didn't say a nice word here or there.
Certainly, you flock with a herd....but hardly that of The Lamb."
CyberCowboy777 "Woe unto you that you would question my salvation."
No, you did not question my salvation, you proclaimed my damnation. That has reverberation and not for me.
"Though he loved Caesar less than Rome, though the Union was more to him than our freedom or our future, under his wise and beneficent rule we saw ourselves gradually lifted from the depths of slavery to the heights of liberty and manhood; under his wise and beneficent rule, and by measures approved and vigorously pressed by him, we saw that the handwriting of ages, in the form of prejudice and proscription, was rapidly fading away from the face of our whole country; under his rule, and in due time, about as soon after all as the country could tolerate the strange spectacle, we saw our brave sons and brothers laying off the rags of bondage, and being clothed all over in the blue uniforms of the soldiers of the United States; under his rule we saw two hundred thousand of our dark and dusky people responding to the call of Abraham Lincoln, and with muskets on their shoulders, and eagles on their buttons, timing their high footsteps to liberty and union under the national flag; under his rule we saw the independence of the black republic of Haiti, the special object of slave-holding aversion and horror, fully recognized, and her minister, a colored gentleman, duly received here in the city of Washington; under his rule we saw the internal slave-trade, which so long disgraced the nation, abolished, and slavery abolished in the District of Columbia; under his rule we saw for the first time the law enforced against the foreign slave trade, and the first slave-trader hanged like any other pirate or murderer; under his rule, assisted by the greatest captain of our age, and his inspiration, we saw the Confederate States, based upon the idea that our race must be slaves, and slaves forever, battered to pieces and scattered to the four winds; under his rule, and in the fullness of time, we saw Abraham Lincoln, after giving the slave-holders three months' grace in which to save their hateful slave system, penning the immortal paper, which, though special in its language, was general in its principles and effect, making slavery forever impossible in the United States. Though we waited long, we saw all this and more."
-- Frederick Douglass, 1876
Walt
ROFLOL - This whole phase of our exchanges began after you foolishly tried to misuse a Frederick Douglass quote to "prove" that Lincoln wasn't prejudiced. I provided you with numerous quotes where Douglass said Lincoln WAS, and exposed your lie. Anyone reading the thread can see that, Walt. They will also see that I repeatedly pointed out that I did not consider Lincoln evil for his commonly held race views, I was only being objective and trying to show how unobjective your perversion of history was. You, however, have blitheringly repeated your obviously false claims.
These are from the -same- speech. It makes it hard to credit you with much objectivity in your continued attempt to defend your original fallacy:
"It must be admitted, truth compels me to admit, even here in the presence of the monument we have erected to his memory, Abraham Lincoln was not, in the fullest sense of the word, either our man or our model. In his interests, in his associations, in his habits of thought, and in his prejudices, he was a white man. He was preeminently the white man's president, entirely devoted to the welfare of white men."
"I have said that President Lincoln was a white man and shared the prejudices common to his countrymen towards the colored race. Looking back to his times and to the condition of his country, we are compelled to admit that this unfriendly feeling on his part may be safely set down as one element of his wonderful success in organizing the loyal American people for the tremendous conflict before them, and bringing them safely through that conflict."
"Though Mr. Lincoln shared the prejudices of his white fellow countrymen against the Negro, it is hardly necessary to say that in his heart of hearts he loathed and hated slavery."
"When he tarried long in the mountain; when he strangely told us that we were the cause of the war; when he still more strangely told us to leave the land in which we were born; when he refused to employ our arms in defense of the Union; when, after accepting our services as colored soldiers, he refused to retaliate our murder and torture as colored prisoners; when he told us he would save the Union if he could with slavery; when he revoked the Proclamation of Emancipation of General Fremont; when he refused to remove the popular commander of the Army of the Potomac, in the days of its inaction and defeat, who was more zealous in his efforts to protect slavery than to suppress rebellion; when we saw all this, and more, we were at times grieved, stunned, and greatly bewildered; but our hearts believed while they ached and bled....we were able to take a comprehensive view of Abraham Lincoln"
That's all I've tried to get you to do, Walt. To take a COMPREHENSIVE view. Objectivity requires it. You are the one who obsessively focuses on snippets to "prove" some falsehood. I have only provided snippets to defend objectivity and PROVE your lies for what they were. If you are still going to maintain that Douglass said Lincoln wasn't prejudiced, then the only way you can do that is to call Douglass a liar, because Douglass obviously said that Lincoln was. He did forgive him for his prejudice, Walt, but he didn't revise history to make Lincoln into something he wasn't.
I think so.
Just when I think that the media and the like get overblown concerning the Southern Heritage movement, somebody like Aurelius pipes up with a comment like that. Almost a Lott-type comment.
OTOH, aren't many of the southern & western states more likely to get federal entitlements? I think Mississippi tops the list of per capita fed money recieved v. amount paid.
But yes, there are many patriotic anti-war Americans out here in Califorina.
Quite a few in Europe, I think. Russia was the only major European power that was pro-Union. Even the British govt favored the CSA, although not the average Brit.
Not that I'm a neo-confederate. Their whining is silly. The CSA was stained with slavery, and the Civil War is soooo over.
Not a single one in Europe, as a matter of fact, or anywhere else in the world. The independence of the confederate states was never recognized by a single country. That didn't prevent private companies in England and France and elsewhere from selling munitions to the south, but that is a far cry from official recognition.
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