CA: Plastic pipe ban is ruled illegal

Sac Bee ^ | 12/21/02 | Aurelio Rojas

[NormsRevenge]

Plastic pipe manufacturers Friday hailed a court ruling that could clear the way for their product to be used in homes statewide as a victory for consumers over politics.

The industry sued the state in September, alleging Gov. Gray Davis' administration forced new home buyers to spend millions of additional dollars on housing by restricting the use of a plastic water pipe known as PEX.

[smoking camels]

1. There were different grades of pipe made. Some companies skimped on some critical ingredients.

2. The acetane (sp?) fittings often just broke.

3. And yes the aluminum crimp rings often failed.

Chlorine was thought to attack the tubing but some my dad and I installed 15 years ago or more is still working great. We used a better quality and used copper or brass fittings with copper crimp rings.

[smoking camels]

I am not aware of any code that allows this. Please let me know which states and which codes allow this.

I have no use for CPVC for a number of reasons.

1. The greatly restricted internal diameter.

2. The fragility of the pipe when cold.

3. It's tendency to splinter if it frezzes.

4. I prefer not to have my drinking water in contact with the glues and cleaners used to join it.

5. It leaches chemicals into the water that are unhealthy.

[smoking camels]

I believe that the problem is the old galvinized piping. I am aware of the situation you mentioned but the information I have says that they will insure homes with PEX as readily as ones with copper.

I don't know how long PEX will last. I do not see a lot of copper lasting 50 years. In many areas copper fails within 10 to 20 years. PEX already is lasting much longer than that. Industry experts say the expectancy is 100 years but that is not proven at this point.

There are a variety of connection systems used in PEX. I happen to not like the crimped system but the testing shows it to be good. I use brass fittings. I se Wirsbo, Rehau, and Kitec brands. Be aware that there are several grades of PEX out there but some of them I will not use because I do not trust them to hold up for the long haul. I hope I am wrong. Theoretically I am wrong but I choose to install what I KNOW will last.

[smoking camels]

BTW, I appreciate your intelligent questions.

[smoking camels]

Your copper story is typical. The flux issue is a big one right now. The new codes are calling for water soluable fluxes. Many plumbers do not debur the cut ends of copper which will lead to erosion in the tubing near the fittings. I have seen this myself a number of times. But neither of these issues explain the pinholing you describe. FYI, I am an active member of the largest and most respected plumbing e-mail discussion group. There is a lot of fighting going on the last few days on this very issue of PEX vs. copper. We have the CDA on there as well as members of the PEX industry. They cannot explain the copper failures. Their excuses are weak.

[smoking camels]

I posted a link to this thread to the plumber's list I belong to.

[SwankyC]

It took me 5 to 10 tries to learn how to weld copper pipe. It's very easy. Dont underestimate your ability to "Do-it-yourself"

[smoking camels]

Did you ever solder a joint then peel it apart to see if it was a good joint? Just because it hold water means nothing in the long run. Just a tip to help you.

[smoking camels]

I thought about this some more. You don't need to post your credentials. I already know you don't have any. Your claims expose you as a phony and a fraud. Only someone with no experience would ever believe you. Either you are totally ignorant of this subject, flat out lying, or do not know how to CORRECTLY join copper and/or CPVC. Which is it?

[SunTzuWu]

A big "I hate CPVC" BUMP!!

I'm a plumber in NC, and I can't stand the stuff, it's mostly used in mobile homes here. PEX is used alot here for residential (even $1m+ custom homes), and almost all the comercial jobs are copper. 4" copper is the largest pipe I've soldered. It was the main for a school.

As for the PEX vs. Copper debate, I've no problem with the idea of PEX in my own home.

[Colorado Doug]

PEX-AL-PEX with no vinyl in it

No vinyl huh? Well I still like the stuff. The aluminum sleeve gives it a nice ridged quality and the PEX provides the protection. I would never go back to copper for underground. Thanks for setting me straight on the vinyl. I was just repeating what my supplier told me. My one and only complaint with Kitec is getting my supplier to keep some of the more oddball fittings in stock for me, otherwise Kitec is the best.

[Colorado Doug]

PEX can and does burst from freezing...

I suppose it can burst but, I have a length of 1" Kitec that is not yet buried. It has been down to 4 degrees in the past week and I just had to take a torch to it so I could water my horses. The fittings are buried so they didn't freeze. The pipe is fine and I will bury it in a couple of weeks when I get around to it. Speaking of fittings, Kitec can be ordered in 300' foot rolls so that means less couplings. That in turn means fewer weak links. I can roll out 300' feet of Kitec straighter and a whole lot easier than a 100' roll of copper.

[Colorado Doug]

I even soldered a 1 1/4" copper line that was FULL of water

Okay, I'll bite. How'd you do that? Freeze the line on either side and drill a hole to vent the steam?

[A CA Guy]

I read in earlier posts that some felt it left a plastic taste in the water. Can that be or is that in their mind?

I ask because many of these man made materials end up being caustic to the human body.

Also, is this legal to use now in California for both hot and cold water?

[A CA Guy]

BTW, I am asking all these questions because in the next few weeks I had scheduled with a friend re-plumbing the main part of the house. My main pipe going to the home and a whole other section of home have copper. I had added another 800 square feet years ago, but for some ding-dong reason I didn't re-plumb underneath the older part of the house. I am remodeling the whole home, so I am knocking out parts of the walls going up for various reasons which makes it a great time to also do the plumbing in the walls,
new fixtures and everything else.

So I wonder if this is legal in California to buy and use now? Would there be an issue showering in the water(I don't drink tap water)?

I can also give you a my current Home Depot horror story where I ordered carpet and they are trying to raise my price now by hundreds of dollars.

I wanted to carpet the part of my house that isn't tiled. It was the last day of a sale where stuff was 10% off up to the first $2000 and the pad was free as well.
I told the guy to create an invoice for all the costs for 150 yards installed which would be for sure more than I can use. I can later have them measure and HD could refund the balance due me.
So I asked for a bill for everything. It was only about $2400 for great carpet. I figured that was a great price and I wouldn't have to shop anymore for that and paid the bill.
The person who measures comes out, I get the information part of a week later that I only need about 105 yards to carpet the one part of the house. So I am due back about 1/3rd.
They never told me about my refund, so I call back and they say I owe another $70 or so dollars.

I asked if they were mixed up and they explained they needed to add an installation cost of $4.50 a yard.
I complained about the fact that I asked for a complete bill for 150 yards of carpet installed and that even my invoice has a TOTAL install labor charge of $4.50 in my paid paperwork. I thought that was a charge to initiate the sale in the computer.
So I ended talking to the manager of that Home Depot who backed the mistake of his fellow and gave me a copy of the new invoices where they claimed I had money due.
That paperwork was all a mistake as well. They had a higher price for the carpet in the second set of paperwork compared to the first and the numbers were all off. In addition a magical extra fee of almost $500 appeared in the second set of papers.
So at this point I have to find regional folks or their home office.
#1 In their 5 easy steps to Guaranteed Total Satisfaction, Step 2 says ESTIMATE PRICE.. If you provide your approx room sized, we will advise your total estimated installed price.
Well we went with 150 yards and they left installation out even though I cut a large check..
#2 They say installation is never free and I should know $4.50 wasn't for the total installation price.
I said well, I don't work for you and haven't a clue as to what your policies are. I asked for the total price and had your version of total installation left out.
I also stopped shopping because of this and there were flyers in my area where carpet companies were offering free pad and installation with a purchase for Christmas. So I could have found more reasonable carpet before CHristmas. Or at least would have made a different choice if they started by trying to charge me $3000 instead of $2300 on the original bill.
Plus this is ruining my holidays.

Lastly, I went to another local Home Depot yesterday and in the carpet department there are all NEW SIGNS (flyers) stapled to each rack where they post the $4.50 a yard installation and what is done for that money. They weren't there more than two days ago. There's like 80 of them in the department now. LOL

I guess I shook up the whole company or they have a bigger problem than just me.

Merry Christmas.

[snopercod]

Thanks for the info on the PB failures.

On the copper failures, I note that where I live, the available Type M is made in Mexico, whereas the Type L is made in the USofA. Could that be a factor?

[snopercod]

Apeaking of flux...and the residents' drinking enjoyment, after I finished plumbing my new house with copper and the new "water soluable" flux, it took weeks to get the flux out of the system.

I just let the water run for a while at each branch, then let it sit for a day, then repeat...

It would come out of the tap fizzy until it cleaned up.

I was wondering if there was a better way to clean it out, like a citric acid flush or something...

[smoking camels]

hmmmmm... new twist for me... all I see is US made... foreign steel pipe is crap.... maybe copper is too???

[smoking camels]

thanks.