CA: Plastic pipe ban is ruled illegal

Sac Bee ^ | 12/21/02 | Aurelio Rojas

[NormsRevenge]

Plastic pipe manufacturers Friday hailed a court ruling that could clear the way for their product to be used in homes statewide as a victory for consumers over politics.

The industry sued the state in September, alleging Gov. Gray Davis' administration forced new home buyers to spend millions of additional dollars on housing by restricting the use of a plastic water pipe known as PEX.

[dighton]

HA!, that $280,000 bribe went down the flusher.

[steveo]

It's important to save $500 on a $350K house.

[Sabertooth]

Anyone know the difference between PEX and PVC?

[Sentis]

Its not just the 500 dollars it is maintainence. As a home owner with plastic piping I can do my own plumbling work if I had copper pipes I would need to call a plumber in order to do what is simple mantainence with plastic. Those costs add up and the plumbers unions want to be rid of plastic piping so they can continue to charge outrageous prices to consumers.

[Jhoffa_]

The manufacturers say workers can install plastic pipe in a home, on average, in eight hours, instead of 20 hours for copper. They peg the cost savings at $500 per home -- roughly $50 million each year in California.

LOL! LOL!

Nice try, but you don't know how Unions work.

Now it will just take more stupid union goons longer to install the pipes.

Ever hear the one about "how many X's does it take to install a light bulb?" They personify that.

[templar]

Plumbers' unions stand to lose income if copper pipes are replaced by PEX.

I'm not sure I understand how this works. Do the unions get some type of percentage or commission? Is there a California plumber that could explain this?

[Gorzaloon]

Its not just the 500 dollars it is maintainence. As a home owner with plastic piping I can do my own plumbling work if I had copper pipes I would need to call a plumber in order to do what is simple mantainence with plastic. Those costs add up and the plumbers unions want to be rid of plastic piping so they can continue to charge outrageous prices to consumers.

Normally I am all for polymer replacements for a lot of things..they require less energy to manufacture, do not corrode and are lighter in weight and easy to handle.

But copper plumbing, once one gets some practice soldering, is actually quite an enjoyable and easy thing to do. And copper is slightly germicidal.

I do not know about the newer polymers, but years ago a contractor friend of mine was sued when a PVC job all exploded from water hammer in a big industrial processing plant.

[William Terrell]

It's important to save $500 on a $350K house.

It's more important to keep that extra money from going to plumbers unions so they can finance Davis' campaign.

[Tacis]

"...the material could have negative environmental effects ..."

But, this absolute fact, the stuff could have negative environmental effects! Take a six foot length of the stuff and wrap the first six inches of one end with black tape. Then, grasping the taped end (and, assuming you have a reasonable eye and reasonable hand/eye coordination), swing from the heels at every spotted owl you see. Every time you hit one, chalk up an environmental effect. Similarly, a truckload of the stuff, if driven at speeds approximating 100mph, could really damage endangered plant life, for example.

More importantly, every time one of these restrictions is removed, Blackout Davis and his crew of thieves loses another opportunity for bribes, kickbacks and shakedowns.

[Jhoffa_]

I know PVC's effectiveness is limited because it can't stand up to high temperatures (hot water heater for example) for an extended period.

CPVC & Quest however, they can.. I am surprised they aren't the norm.

[Sentis]

When I fix plastic piping all I have to do it cut it with a hacksaw and glue it together. It is so easy a kit that can put together a model airplane could do it. Soldering may be enjoyable to some not to me and cutting copper pipe is different than slicing through plastic.

[Sabertooth]

CPVC & Quest however, they can.. I am surprised they aren't the norm.

Thanks. Do you know how they might be different than PEX?

[templar]

I have plastic pipes in my current home. I've always had copper before. I find the plastic to be harder to work with than copper. Copper is easy and only requires about $20.00 worth of tools to work on. No special crimpers, bands, cutters, etc. Copper seems to be more suceptable to freeze damage though. I've frozen some plastic pipes without them bursting that would have probably burst if they were copper.

[gitmo]

I would think copper pipe would have more environmental impact than plastic.

[FreedomPoster]

Bingo! Anyone remember polybutylene water piping?

That said, unions in many states keep perfectly good materials from being used in construction. Romex has proven a safe house wiring material. At one time, it wasn't allowed in NY and/or IL because of union influence. Anyone know for sure?

This PEX piping must be fairly new. I was in the consulting engineering business until about 6-1/2 years ago, and this stuff wasn't on the scene in any obvious way then.

[Jhoffa_]

I'm not sure I understand how this works. Do the unions get some type of percentage or commission? Is there a California plumber that could explain this?

First, Union plumbers get paid BIG BUCKS for doing a relatively simple job, and it's getting simpler every day.

Typically copper piping must be measured, cut, burnished, fitted, coated with flux and then soldered with a torch.. It's a pretty slow process, usually involving more people.

Plastic pipes (under all the varous labels) are simply cut and either joined with couplers or is glued in place. It may not sound like it but it's much, much faster to install plastic pipe and it's allot easier for one person to do a large job by himself or with a minimum of assistance.

[Sabertooth]

When I fix plastic piping all I have to do it cut it with a hacksaw and glue it together.

Even a cheap pair of PVC cutters ($10 to $15) will make your task a lot easier than that hacksaw. Far less burring, too.

[texson66]

Here's a link on PEX pipes... I'm not sure I would use any kind of plastic in a home. Our PCV water main burst just before the class-action suite closed. We got an 80% settlement. We replaced our PVC line with cooper! PEX

[Jhoffa_]

Thanks. Do you know how they might be different than PEX?

CPVC is brittle. Quest was joined with couplers as opposed to a righous joint. Some of these joints failed and led to millions in damages being awarded, cost the makers allot of money and stigmatized the product.

Believe it or not though, quest could go through multiple freeze/thaw cycles without breaking.. Perhaps this new product is a hybrid of that sort?

Other than that, I can think of no advantages it might hold over the other plastic varieties.. except for cost maybe but it doesn't seem like the savings could be that substancial.

BUT, all these are way, way cheaper than copper. By a long shot. More than enough to justify their use. (especially when you have a union goon installing them)