Donahue 12/16/02 (America Hating Appeasers on Parade: Sarandon, Robbins, Peck)

Guests: Edward Peck, Dan Flynn, Susan Sarandon, Tim Robbins, Bob Barr, Hugh Downs

ANNOUNCER: You’re watching America’s News Channel, MSNBC. Now,
DONAHUE.
Tonight, Susan Sarandon and Tim Robbins go inside the issue. Is being anti-war un-American?
While President Bush bangs his war drum, some Americans think we should explore other options. So is protesting for peace unpatriotic?
Tim Robbins, Susan Sarandon and a live audience. DONAHUE starts right now.
PHIL DONAHUE, HOST: Good evening. Welcome to DONAHUE, live from New York City. Where else would we get this kind of enthusiasm? Last week, last week many Hollywood stars stepped out to protest the possibility of war with Iraq. And Sean Penn has just made what he called “a humanitarian visit” to Baghdad. Many people were outraged by these actions, but the stars say just because I’m against the war, don’t you dare call me un-American.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DONAHUE (voice-over): The anti-war movement is heating up. From Washington, D.C. to California, last week alone, there were demonstrations against a possible invasion of Iraq in an estimated 37 states.
And the stars have come out as well in protest, prompting some to call Hollywood un-American. Are these protests a good thing for a nation at war? Or are the protesters the real patriots?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
Well, we’ll be joined shortly by actors Susan Sarandon and Tim Robbins. And veteran journalist Hugh Downs is here.
But I want to start with Dan Flynn, author of “Why the Left Hates America.” And you’re talking about me, Dan. And former ambassador to Iraq, Edward Peck.
I don’t hate America. Why would you say such a thing like that? Because the left doesn’t hate America. You’re on the air. Tell us what you think about...
DAN FLYNN, AUTHOR, “WHY THE LEFT HATES AMERICA”: Well, you look at a guy like Sean Penn going over to Baghdad. I think he should stay over there, if you ask me.
But you listen to a lot of these Hollywood stars. And Susan Sarandon, who is going to be joining us. I mean, she said after “Thelma & Louise,” the United States is a land that has raped every area of the world. If she believes that and doesn’t hate America, maybe she should. Because if you think the United States has raped every land in the world, then it would logically follow that you do hate America.

Robbins: And there was no election in Kuwait after we liberated it. So I think part of this is that we didn’t-we got sold a load of bunk the last time.

Aha! Three parliamentary elections have been held in Kuwait since the Gulf War, with the next elections scheduled for 2003:

During Iraq's 1990-91 occupation of Kuwait, Kuwaiti opposition leaders met with the Government in an extraordinary meeting in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, to decide who was the legitimate government in exile. They emerged with a pledge to support the Amir and the Crown Prince as the legitimate representatives of the Kuwaiti people. The Amir in turn pledged to hold elections and to restore parliamentary democracy. In 1992, the Amir fulfilled his promise by holding elections in October. The first session of the reconvened Assembly ran its course, and elections were held again in 1996. Under normal circumstances, the Assembly would have stood for election again in October of 2000, but on May 4, 1999 the Amir once again dissolved the Parliament. This time, however, the dissolution followed constitutional guidelines, and early elections were scheduled for July 3.

Democratization in Kuwait

See also:

CNN Election Watch - Kuwait

Kuwait elections go online (BBC 1 July 1999)

New Kuwait Cabinet Passes Sweeping Reforms (Womens Vote, Open Economy '99)

(American) Muslim Women's League article about Kuwaiti Emir's decree enfranchising women ('99)

Kuwaiti legislature says 'no' to women's vote

NOTE that all decrees by the executive (Emir & Primeminister) must be approved by the Parliament, which can also introduce legislation. The measure to allow women to vote and hold office was defeated by only two votes.

Women Win Right to Challenge Discriminatory Electoral Law (Amnesty Intl 2 June 2000)

Kuwait's women fighting for right to vote 13 July 2001

Court challenge failed on a technicality, but the movement for feminine enfranchisement struggles on

Anybody know the latest on the woman's vote? The preceeding (summer 2001) is as far as I've traced it so far. In any case it appears that Kuwait has a rather raucous democracy willing and able to challenge the will of the royal family. So much for Tim Robbins' cold and mean-spirited smear.

I hate to even mention this, at the risk of ruining the new movie, but the Italian guy that plays Aragorn in LOTR is a RAGING appeasementnik, as well as almost unbelievably ignorant. I saw him on Charlie Rose where he was supposed to talk about the movie, but instead showed up in a hand-made "no more blood for oil" t-shirt and bleated on and on with a series of claims completely divorced from reality.

Upsetting as it was to see Aragorn so unmasked, it did bring home most strongly how thoroughly counterfactual the so-called "peace" movement is. This guy claimed, among other things, that our effort against terrorism was monocultural, unlike the LOTR where elves, men, dwarves and hobbits all fought together. This when he was discussing Afghanistan, where we fought with the Northern Alliance, a multi-cultural, multi-tribal, multi-ethnic group, and against the mono-tribal (Pashtun) Taliban!!!

Then he claimed we made "no effort" (flat, declarative statement) to ensure precision bombing and protect civilians. This with American special forces on the ground and risking their lives to identify targets!!!

The puke went on for around 15 minutes and didn't say one damn thing that was actually true. But he was oh, so painfully earnest. (Vomiting)

O.K. I posted the following to a Tim Robbins fan site. I'm still looking for a more direct email address for Robbins, and one for the Kuwaiti Ambassador, if anyone can help. (Although I'm not sure I want to risk the chance, however small, of starting a real controversy that might generate publicity for Donahue.)

Tim,
You made the following comment on the recent Donahue show:
"I was going to say I’m still trying to figure out what that first Gulf war was for because when they were selling it to us, it was about freedom and democracy. And there was no election in Kuwait after we liberated it. So I think part of this is that we didn’t-we got sold a load of bunk the last time. We’re not willing to go there again."
If you think about it for half a second -- considering the murder, torture, rape and pillage visited on Kuwait and its citizens (e.g. dipping victims slowly in acid baths) -- this statement is incredibly cold, even coming from a secure and successful American who has never been dipped in acid. It seems to me that even someone who might have opposed the means utilized, would nevertheless celebrate the FACT of Kuwait's liberation from such extreme brutality. It is sad and repellent that you cannot even manage that much, and instead express distain for the deliverance of Kuwaitis from fascistic thugs.
Furthermore your claim about elections is untrue. While the government was in exile, the Emir of Kuwait promised his people to restore their Constitutional Democracy when the Iraqis were expelled. This promise was kept and Parliamentary elections were held in October of 1992, and again in 1996 and 1999. Kuwait's next national elections are scheduled for 2003.
Yes, Kuwait is only partially free. The executive -- the Emir and Prime Minister (the later traditionally, though not by constitutional necessity, the Crown Prince) -- are not elected. But Kuwait is the ONLY gulf state with an elected legislative body. Much as you might sneer, it is far and away the most democratic and progressive gulf country. Along with Jordan, which has the same kind of political system, it is one of the most progressive states in the entire Arab world.
Kuwait is in fact a vital and even raucous democracy. Campaigns are spirited and turnout is generally in the vicinity of 80 percent. The 1999 election occurred a year before the normal four year period in which the entire 50 member parliament is reelected due to a constitutional dispute between the executive and the parliament that led to the Emir disbanding the later, but even this was done according to Kuwait's constitution, including the provision that the Emir schedule new elections within two months, which was done.
Indicative of the genuine nature of Kuwait's democracy is a controversy that developed after the election of 1999. Before the election the Emir, at the recommendation of his cabinet, issued a decree extending the right to vote and to hold office to women. The constitution, however, requires that any decree or law issued by the executive must be passed by the parliament, even if it was not in session when the decree was issued. It happened, that after long and passionate public debate, the legislature voted down the new (by a margin of only two votes as it happened).
Now, you and I can agree on regretting this particular result, but it does demonstrate that the legislature has the will and the genuine ability to defy the will of the ruling royal family. Again this is unique among Gulf States. Furthermore the campaign for feminine enfranchisement continues. A Kuwaiti court in 2000 allowed a case to go forward challenging the prohibition of female voting and office holding as being in violation of the Kuwaiti constitution, which promises equal status to all citizens without reference to gender. This case was later thrown out on a technicality, but the campaign continues, and includes very public demonstrations by Kuwaiti women (who can drive themselves, hold any employment apart from political office, and are not formally restricted as to their clothing; in all these and many other respects unlike most other women throughout the gulf states and much of the Arab world).
In short, the American heroes who fought Saddam's thugs in the Gulf War DAMN WELL DID liberate a country that represents an important, indeed unique, democratizing trend in the region.
I hope the loss of this opportunity to despise America's actions in the world (making the rather large assumption that you have the capacity to integrate facts discomforting to your fanatical ideology) does not upset you too much.
I'm sorry. I should be honest. I hope you choke on it, you freedom fearing scum.

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