Posted on 11/29/2002 7:57:37 AM PST by End The Hypocrisy
Three MAJOR civil war cinema epics are due in 2003. 1) Robert Duvall plays Robert E. Lee in Gods & Generals, out Feb. 21; 2) Jude Law portrays a jaded confederate in Cold Mountain, due Dec. 25, 2003; and 3) Tom Cruise plays a Civil War veteran who witnesses the end of a Japanese culture in The Last Samurai, due Dec. 12, 2003. Gods & Generals is replete with special effects, although director Maxwell still used more than 10,000 extras to re-create battle scenes.
(Excerpt) Read more at usatoday.com ...
Sadly you are correct about their way of thinking! If I were one of them and found myself reduced to spouting the nonsense non-seq asserts, I would be embarrassed for the ignorance of that position. He evidently is not embarrassed because either (a) he has no moral reservations against pushing propaganda and nonsense to win an argument or (b) he is simply clueless about how the economy works.
The truly sad thing is that non-seq's economically laughable way of thinking is pervasive among northern historians and academics. Look at "Noam" McPherson's "analysis" of the pre-war economy for the perfect example. McPherson observes nothing more than that the north's economy is strong when weighed against its own strenghts, as if this is some sort of profound revelation!
Even more amazing, he then proceeds to judge the southern economy by those same obvious strengths of the northern economy. The part about northern weaknesses compared to the south are neglected to a minimal role if at all. You know...little economic things like the fact that some 3/4ths of the entire nation's exports came from the south. These yankee types avoid real economic analysis at all costs because including it means realizing a blemish in the self proclaimed infallability of their position. So they write their own rules for the given situation and stock them with woefully inadequite numbers instead.
It was the invention of the cotton gin in 1793 that helped cause feelings against slavery to wane. The cotton gin made producing cotton by gang slave labor profitable.
Mechanical cotton -pickers- on the other hand were not invented until the 1940's.
Anopther 80 years of slavery is easy to contemplate though, right?
Walt
Where did you get your education? K-mart?
The record from the people of the day makes in plain that white supremacy and the maintenance of slavery was the most improtant issue to the vast majority of whites in the so-called seceded states.
This comment is typical:
Soon to be CSA congressman Lawrence Keitt, speaking in the South Carolina secession convention, said, "Our people have come to this on the question of slavery. I am willing, in that address to rest it upon that question. I think it is the great central point from which we are now proceeding, and I am not willing to divert the public attention from it."
You won't show anything else by appeal to the record.
Walt
All this gobblety gook doesn't mean squat.
The slave states didn't want manufacturing interests to prosper. They didn't want free labor and they didn't want a middle class. They wanted a stratification of society into peons and nobles, slaves and masters.
And as you well know, southern congressmen made the tariffs --exactly-- what they wanted them to be. By keeping the federal government strapped for cash, they made revolution and rebellion more attainable.
They thought.
Walt
The Constitution HERE: http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Constitution.html
Makes no such claim. I thought I would try a Federal Government truck stop and see if the reading material was different,,,NOPE,,it says the same thing. Sorry,,,boy,,,
Don't be so hard on your man Davis, Comrade. After all it wasn't Lincoln but Davis who extended all enlistments in the confederate army, against the will of the soldiers. It wasn't Lincoln but Davis who slapped a levy on agricultural produce 'for the war effort' without compensation to the farmers. It wasn't Lincoln but Davis who had the government running industries like textile, salt manufacturing, and liquor. It wasn't Lincoln but Davis who siezed a percentage of the cargo space of every blockade runner, again without compensation and 'for the war effort'. It wasn't Lincoln but Davis who refused to establish an entire branch of government. Old Jeffy-boy jumped feet first into actions that Lincoln would never have considered. Lenin might have done those things, Stalin certainly would have, but not Lincoln.
What Davis did was done under duress, whereas what Clinton the First did was done with jubilation and elan, no duress.
Yeah, right. Davis had no problem with any of his actions regardless of how unconstitutional they were or how badly they trampled on the whole concept of states rights.
You are shocked, shock you say, at the idea that the confederate flag would be used at a Klan rally? Given the origins of the group it doesn't surprise me at all, bill. I'm certainly not suggesting that all supporters of the confederate cause are racists, but why does it surprise you that the Klan would cling to the confederate flag as their symbol?
Half truths once again, GOP. The American Knights of the Ku Klux Klan may have an office in Indianapolis, I have no idea if it's a headquarters, but what about the Alabama White Knights of the KKK? They're in Alabama. What about the Imperial Klans of America or the America's Invisible Empire Knights of the Ku Klux Klan or the Southern Cross Militant Knights of the Ku Klux Klan? They seem to be in the south. You can't tell me that the Southern White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan or the North Georgia White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan or the Mississippi White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan or the Rebel Knights of the Ku Klux Klan could possibly be headquartered in a Yankee state, can you? Tolerance.org identified 109 separate Klan chapters in the U.S. and over 70% of those were located down south. And they all seem to have an affinity for that confederate flag of yours. I wonder why? Tradition, do you suppose?
It seems to me more a case of simple mathematics. The claim has been made that the south paid 87% of the tariff revenue. That would seem to me that they would have had to consume either 87% of the actual imports or 87% of the output of the industries that the tariffs protected. And both those figures are ridiculous. Southern demand for imports were too low to justify having the goods shipped to them. That leaves domestically produced goods. What Northern industry did the south consume the overwhelming percentage of, other than slaves? Iron, textile, some other form of manufactured goods? What? The claim that the south paid most of the tariffs is impossible to support. If anything it is far more likely that the south actually paid a smaller percentage of tariff revenue.
Yet you have nothing to show that I'm wrong except for your own bombastic opinions. And you call me laughable.
The south consuming 87% of -any- industry seems inconsistent with the fact that during the war the federal goernment could call on factories that could produce 5,000 rifles a --day-- while factories in the so-called CSA could only produce 100 rifles a day.
Of course the great CSA technological marvel, the Hunley didn't even have an engine.
Walt
And using southron logic, the southern states either directly consumed 87% of the imports or 87% of the output of the domestic industries protected by those tariffs. So where is the evidence that supports that?
It is based on the percent of total households just like the rate of home ownership is calculated today.
If you think the numbers are "bogus" you had best let the University of Virginia know that their historicaql census figures are all screwed up.
Here's the way slave ownership broke down by state in the 1860 census.
Census data can be appealed to in order to determine the extent of slave ownership in each of the states that allowed it in 1860. The figures given here are the percentage of slave-owning families as a fraction of total free households in the state. The data was taken from a census archive site at the University of Virginia.
Mississippi: 49% South Carolina: 46% Georgia: 37% Alabama: 35% Florida: 34%
Louisiana: 29% Texas: 28% North Carolina: 28% Virginia: 26% Tennessee: 25%
Kentucky: 23% Arkansas: 20% Missouri: 13% Maryland: 12% Delaware: 3% In the Lower South (SC, GA, AL, MS, LA, TX, FL -- those states that seceded first), about 36.7% of the white families owned slaves. In the Middle South (VA, NC, TN, AR -- those states that seceded only after Fort Sumter was fired on) the percentage is around 25.3%, and the total for the two combined regions -- which is what most folks think of as the Confederacy -- is 30.8%. In the Border States (DE, MD, KY, MO -- those slave states that did not secede) the percentage of slave-ownership was 15.9%, and the total throughout the slave states was almost exactly 26%.
What? Racist Yankee group? For a 'racist Yankee group' don't you find is a bit odd that over 70% of the active Klan chapters are found in the former confederate states? Doesn't sound all that Yankee to me, billbears.
Quite the contrary. If you ever bothered to read any of my posts you would see that I totally support the economic roots of the war. It was the southern insistance on expansion of slavery to the west and Lincoln's total opposition to expansion that caused the war. The south had to have expansion if they were to stay economically viable. Sixty percent of their wealth was in the form of slaves whose population doubled every 15 years. With the markets for slaves nearing the saturation point and a number of southern states at a near a majority slave population, they needed new markets or the price of slaves would have collapsed due to over supply. That is not even to mention the social and security issues that would have developed as the slave population outnumbered the white population in their states.
Expansion was an economic and social imperative for them and Lincoln stood in their way.
During the last couple of years, the group with the most impact in the state of Pennsylvania has been the church of the American Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. But their activity is decreasing because their leader is in jail. We've also seen increasing activity by the Aryan Nation, the National Alliance and Neo-Nazi skinhead groups, as well as the World Church of the Creator, which has established several chapter locations in Pennsylvania, including in one in York County. Pennsylvania has gained a reputation as a hate crime hotbed, because we monitor and report on our hate group activity much more diligently than other states. But it doesn't matter how we compare to other states. We are on notice that we've got a problem. It doesn't matter whether we're at the top of the list or the bottom of the list, we've got to deal with it.CentralPA.com
Then of course the HQ of the American Knights of the Klan are located in Indiana with 'realms' (that's what they call it) in Oregon, Indiana, and New York? Then of course we can't forget about those wacky nuts over at the World Church of the Creator or the Aryan nations now can we? Both not headquartered in the South. Face it, these crackpots are continuing the racist crap their forefathers began before the War. You know, the banning of blacks from living in their states and selling freedmen into slavery just to get rid of those already in the northern states. For the life of me, of the major racist organizations I've seen ol' Morris Dees attack, I can't find any of them down South. Seems ol' Morris is barking up the wrong tree in the wrong part of the nation
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