Death of American Twins, Liberty and Freedom

Self

[Old philosopher]

Today, November 25, 2002, with the signature of George W. Bush creating the Department of Homeland Security, a milestone in the History of our great country was marked by the death of the Twin Pillars of our society, Freedom and Liberty.

The fight to keep alive these two foundations of our Nation has been a long and arduous one. The mercilous attacks on them have come from politicians on both sides of the aisle in their ever continuing grab for more and more power. Regardless of popular support for the twins, the political class has long sought to bring about their demise. In a "Bi-Partisan" effort both houses of Congress have voted to destroy the most important rights of the People, only a very few of the Congress opposed the death of these important twins.

Those of us who have known these twins for a long time will be very much saddened by their death, and those who have only known them briefly will soon learn how important they were to the Welfare and Security of our Great Country. With the death of Liberty and Freedom it will only be a short time until the Populace of this country will be living under a Dictatorship, controlled by an "Elite" class of politicians who will dictate every facet of our lives.

Requiem In Pacet!

[dcwusmc]

Nice post and a good obituary. Sadly, I fear you are closer to right than Southack would have us believe.

[Southack]

"Sadly, I fear you are closer to right than Southack would have us believe."

And you feel free to make that wild-eyed claim even though the old philosopher has REFUSED to name the specific freedom that he claims he lost when the Homeland Security Act was signed yesterday?!

You are far too easily swayed by hyperbole instead of by facts.

[Southack]

"Show us by specific example where Dubya even plans to TRY to shrink gooberment. You can't do it, your pathetic bleats notwithstanding."

Bush Administration Puts 850,000 Federal Jobs Up For Bid For Private Contractors

[Southack]

"And your precious pubbies are surely not a whit better than the RATS, as you and your morally-deficient cohorts prove every day."

What a warped world you must live in, to think that Bush's killing of the International Criminal Court is no better than Clinton's subscription to that globalist nightmare.

How sad that you think that Republicans cutting off foreign funds for abortions is no better than Democrats fully funding such activities.

How pathetic that you would think that America is no better off defending herself from nuclear-tipped ICBM's under Republicans than when Democrats kept us completely unable to legally defend ourselves via their use of the CCCP-U.S. ABM Treaty.

Gore backed the Kyoto Treaty on Global Warming. Bush killed it, yet you can't comprehend any difference in the two parties.

Sad, but typical.

[u-89]

You.... claim that the two major parties had joined together to pursue a solitary goal together. To debunk it, I pointed out that you had clearly missed the outright warfare between Democrats and Republicans. In other words, the two major parties are fighting, not cooperating at every level to pursue a single goal.

Let me offer this illustration for your consideration. We as a people, a nation are on a journey and there is a mountain in our path. Some suggest we climb over, some wish to move around the north side, others the south side and yet others want to tunnel through. We divide into groups over this problem. Throw in personality conflict within the groups over who is to lead each. All told there is a lively democracy going on with real battles over real issues but this has us distracted from the important point that we are being led to the other side of the mountain. What is the other side of the mountain? Socialism. BTW, have you read the Road To Serfdom?

[dcwusmc]

And this shrinks government HOW? The fact remains the functions are not going away, only the matter of who performs them... and this is not necessarily a good thing. Gooberment agents are bound in ways private contractors would NOT be...

[Southack]

Did you click on the link in Post #264? Do you really call privatizing 850,000 federal jobs socialism?

Is privatizing part of Social Security movuing TOWARDS more socialism?!

Is kicking the International Criminal Court in the teeth moving TOWARDS socialism?

Is killing the Kyoto Treaty on Global Warming moving TOWARDS socialism?

Well, when someone claims that the two major parties are BOTH moving towards the same goal, that's what it amounts to (i.e. labeling GWB's slams of the ICC and Kyoto as moving CLOSER to socialism rather than the more accurate description of all of that being moves AWAY from socialism).

[Southack]

"And this shrinks government HOW? The fact remains the functions are not going away, only the matter of who performs them... and this is not necessarily a good thing."

It shrinks government by reducing the number of unfire-able federal employees. It shrinks government by opening jobs up to MARKET-BASED competition. It shrinks government by giving the President the authority to downsize various agencies. Do you honestly think that the President had that full and unfettered authority in the past?!

You asked for an example. You claimed that no such example could ever be provided. Yet in mere seconds I gave you such an example.

Now you are left to dance around the fact that Bush is indeed advancing plans to shrink government (e.g. privatizing Social Security, reducing taxes, opening salaried federal jobs up to private sector market competition, etc.). That must really chap your fringe party A**...

[Libertina]

My dad just turned 80. The life he tells me about, in youth, job opportunity, open spaces - is much freer compared to mine, and it's getting worse. I lived in Taiwan for 10 years, returning in 2000 just before the election. It had more freedom in some areas. I felt safer, the government stayed out of business - anyone could start one and try for the golden ring, taxes were at 6% under US $4,000 a month and 10% if over. This created a supersonic business climate, which I'd never experienced in the US. OF course, Taiwan had its problems, but the US has tried to combat "problems" with such determination that it has squelched choice , except abortion. Can't cut a tree much less have a business on your property. The government & liberal socialist extremists have their noses in every facet of our lives. I love the US, but this legal terrorism and government assault is frightening. I love my country and want it back.

[Hank Kerchief]

Merely to keep propagandists such as yourself from unduly influencing innocent bystanders with your specious agitprop.

I was not going to bother answering this post, (I won't answer any more), but realized you came right out and said what I have been trying to explain about the liberals in Republican clothing all along. They just cannot believe the world can get along without them there to tell people what to do, what to believe, and how to vote. Your whole reason for continuing this debate, you said, is to prevent me from, "unduly influencing innocent bystanders."

Of, course, the innocent bystanders cannot think for themselves, they must have some hack or Southack or some other liberal protecting them from ideas that ought not to be spoken, and you would prevent from being spoken, only you do not yet have the power to forcibly shut up those who speak the truth.

I am no longer debating, because, I personally to not care who believes your claptrap, and I wasn't put here to save others from their own ignorance. In fact, I hope you are very happy in yours.

Hank

[u-89]

Do you believe that we live in a true free market system? name three things that the Feds don't have regulations on. As Walter Williams says when his grandfather was alive the only time he encounted the Feds was when he waved to the post man twice a day (that's right mail used to be delivered twice a day but that is another matter). For over two hundred years local, state and federal governments have been passing laws every year. That is a lot of laws. And that does not count the regulations put out by the bureuacracies that have the wieght of law. Each law and regulation curtails one's freedom. If you are a conservative then I am sure that you have read The Road To Serfdom by Friedrich Hayek. That being the case how is it that you are not alarmed by the centralized orchestration of our lives which grows more influential every year?

And speaking of the International Criminal Court our only objection is that WE would be held accountable there. It's ok for Milosevich and others you know. We have also said that we will hold war crimes trials for Iraqi leaders and we haven't even fought the battles yet.

And what is that wave thing flowing over your map of the US? Is that the flood of immigrants coming over our border?

[Indrid Cold]

I'll create my own wealth, thanks, if big gubbermint will get the h*ll out of the way. Currently, I'm paying corporate income tax(state and federal) on 2 corporations, workman's comp (as required), liability insurance to keep the pesky lawyers at bay, numerous fees for state and federal govts, property tax, and well, you know. Funny thing was, I was paying all those before Freedom and Liberty died. I guess they'll take my blood plasma now, as that's all that's left.

[Texasforever]

Freedom and Liberty died.

What is the difference between freedom and liberty?

[Southack]

"I am no longer debating, because, I personally to not care who believes your claptrap, and I wasn't put here to save others from their own ignorance. In fact, I hope you are very happy in yours."

You're an odd lot to claim that I'm the one who is "ignorant". After all, I wasn't the one who claimed that men were more free back when Blacks were slaves, Hispanics were lynched for having a White girlfriend, and when women were forbiden from voting. On the other hand, you made those claims. You claimed that America was MORE free back when slavery was legal, women couldn't vote, gold was illegal to own, booze was illegal to buy, and goods were rationed by the government.

Yes indeed. You are one strange character. See post #121.

[Cultural Jihad]

"I would rather take my chances with the terrorists than with a government..." - Hank Kerchief

[Southack]

"Do you believe that we live in a true free market system? name three things that the Feds don't have regulations on."

Buying goods. The feds seldom interfere with what specific items anyone wants to buy.

Selling goods. The feds seldom care about what you want to sell.

Travel. The feds seldom care about where and when you travel.

Marriage. The feds seldom care about who you marry.

Where you live. The feds seldom care about where you choose to freely live.

What you write. The feds seldom care about what you write.

Web pages. The feds seldom care about what you post online.

What you say. The feds seldom care about the things that you say.

What you worship. The feds seldom interfere inside churches (Waco being a major exception under Clinton).

What part of the free market do you CLAIM is no longer free? Since when did the government control your sales and purchases in either quantity or quality?

Yes, if you threaten the President or post nuclear secrets on-line, the feds are going to become interested in you, but outside of some pretty threatening behavior, most Americans realize that they are completely free.

Speaking for myself, I can go anywhere, live anywhere, say most anything, worship most any way, and in general live a free an unfettered life. Perhaps you've placed so many mental restrictions on your own behavior that this isn't the case for yourself, but I suspect that you will always find yourself in the minority while in the U.S.