Roswell Incident Had Victims, Program Says

AP | 11/22/02

[Davea]

Roswell Incident Had Victims, Program Says

By RICHARD BENKE | The Associated Press 11/22/2002

ALBUQUERQUE - While he told the world that a weather balloon went down in Roswell, an Army general had in his hand a memo telling Pentagon brass of a UFO crash with "victims," according to a new television documentary.

A computer analysis of that memo, held by Brig. Gen. Roger Ramey during a July 1947 press briefing, is the "smoking gun" of the Roswell Incident, researchers say in the documentary being broadcast today on the Sci-Fi Channel.

Using a digital photo scanner to enlarge and enhance words printed on the folded piece of paper Ramey held, and using another computer program to select the most likely words, researcher David Rudiak, who has a Ph.D. in physics from UC Berkeley, found two key phrases: "the victims of the wreck" and "in the 'disc' they will ship."

With the textual study plus University of New Mexico archaeological findings from one of three alleged UFO crash sites, science fiction seeks to close the gap with fact, producers say.

A photograph taken July 8, 1947, in Fort Worth, Texas, by James Bond Johnson of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram shows Ramey clutching a communique to Washington, D.C., while he displays a deflated weather balloon just hours after other Army officers in Roswell had reported a UFO crash.

It was one of a series of inconsistent military reports about the incident, which has become part of American mythology.

"Unless national security is at stake, there is absolutely no reason to keep this information from the public," said Thomas Vitale, a Sci-Fi Channel vice president. "Whatever crashed at Roswell, let us know what the truth is."

The Air Force had responded to a 1994 call from the late U.S. Rep. Steve Schiff, R-N.M., by saying it had no information on the Roswell Incident. Schiff, an Air Force reserve judge advocate general's officer, then took his query to the General Accounting Office, the investigative arm of Congress.

In 1997, the Air Force acknowledged the weather balloon had been a false cover story, but a new story also was called into question. In a report written by Lt. William McAndrew, the Air Force suggested reports of alien bodies in the wreckage must have originated because of a crash-test program in which mannequins were dropped from balloons. The mannequins did not come close to matching 1947 descriptions of alien bodies, and the crash-test program was not introduced until 1953, Rudiak said.

Sci-Fi, guided by longtime Roswell UFO researchers Tom Carey and Don Schmitt, commissioned William Doleman, an archaeologist with UNM's Maxwell Museum of Anthropology, to excavate the alleged initial crash contact point on the ranch where the late Mack Brazel worked as foreman.

Doleman said he knows little about the Roswell Incident but agreed to excavate the site using purely scientific methods because it is "culturally significant" and because so much of what is circulated about the Roswell crash landing is based on hearsay. What was needed, Doleman said, was physical evidence.

"So this project is a very bold step by people who claim to know what happened and where it happened," Doleman said. "What makes it bold is they were willing to go out there and look for physical evidence."

Details of the excavation are being kept confidential until after today's premiere. But Doleman said he agrees "that obviously something happened in July 1947 in southeastern New Mexico." After his work there, though, he said, "I'm still uncertain" about UFOs and alien beings.

The documentary will introduce some witnesses who have not been heard from publicly before, attesting to the existence of alien bodies in the wreckage of the "flying disc," Carey said by phone from his home in Pennsylvania.

"This is where we loaded the bodies," he quotes one New Mexico witness, Robert Slusher, as saying. Slusher, among those appearing in the documentary, was part of a B-29 crew that he said loaded bodies up through the plane's bomb bay at the Roswell Army Airfield.

Three victims were supposedly recovered from the final crash site, and a team of archaeologists, coincidentally, were in the area doing research on ancient Indians at the time, Carey said. Among them was Curry Holden, an archaeologist from Texas Tech in Lubbock, whom Carey located in 1992.

"Curry Holden said he saw everything - the craft and the bodies," Carey said. Holden died a few months later.

Carey, an investigator for a private corporation, said he started looking into Roswell 12 years ago "as a hobby."

But it became more than that. And now, he said, he and Schmitt are in a race against time, as witnesses become scarcer.

©Santa Fe New Mexican 2002

[mdmathis6]

and being a shrink, how many high stressed individuals do you come across in your practice that are involved in jobs and situations that can not be spoken of in public...that you can not reveal the identity of because of confidentiality concerns? I detect a bit of obliqueness in your posting...what was it you are trying to say with out your saying it? (maybe some of the paranoids are right....look ma, a black disk just out side my window)(hush child...you'll scare it away!)

[js1138]

My brother was insistent that we had our own fleets of UFO craft both that carried people and that went under computer control to any spot on the globe INSTANTLY--as in no or microsecond travel "time."

I think Quix needs to get his brother some help. I am cautiously skeptical about UFOs, but this is insane. This kind of technology in possession by the U.S. would make foreign enemies completely helpless -- something they demonstrably are not.

[Quix]

When I was in San Diego . . . probably more than 50 such people crossed my path--maybe more than 75 or even 100. I was in several contexts and associations that made such likely.

In Taipei, only a handful.

In terms of paranoia, IF we are indeed in the "end times" the Bible and a host of other sources talk extensively about, then paranoia to SOME degree might be good reality testing.

Perhaps you've never read Fromm's SANE SOCIETY. He makes a telling point that in an insane society, only the insane are sane.

Of course, there's being "healthily crazy" i.e. unconventional by a wide margin . . . and there's having gone WAYYYYYYYYY OFF the DEEP end.

I like to toss around possibilities, impressions, postulations, predictions, dreams, visions, intuitions, convictions, beliefs about a wide range of topics. I like to be specific about SOME of them in SOME contexts with SOME people toward SOME goals SOME of the time.

I don't think the UFO business has reliable specifics sufficient to be dogmatic about much of anything. But there's some interesting specifics of stories, patterns, puzzle pieces that can be fun to toss around. God and very few others know much truth in depth and comprehensively about THAT topic--it seems to me.

But stirring up those who MIGHT have a puzzle piece to add--perhaps generating enough emotionality to make a fruitful comment--that can be fun to a point.

Besides, aspects of the topic CAN be at least as much fun as much science fiction.

Part of the obliqueness is because I don't think there's much anyone can be dogmatic about. Part of it is I carry a sort of gestalt with odd specifics in my brain. I don't carry a photographic memory of the last 45 years of study on it. Part of it I don't wish to get into the who said what specifically sort of thing. I don't keep things that tidy in easily retrieved files nor in my brain.

Nevertheless, I believe, if memory serves me right, I've been orders of magnitude MORE VULNERABLE AND REVEALING than you have.

[Quix]

TRUE. It really does seem like SATURATION for SOME reason!

Anyway--in terms of ROSWELL, in Taipei, I knew an engineer with a family of teens and a very educated wife from Florida. They were thrilled with ROSWELL. It was like a weekly family happening that they were loathe to let anything distract from.

I thought it was a bit teeny-boppity but interesting enough to watch. I didn't feel they disclosed anything new about UFO's. Maybe, if there was any OTHER purpose to it, it was just making ET's seem mostly positive.

We shall see how TAKEN turns out on positive/negative.

[Quix]

Hmmm, Larry King and Spielberg as Trolls.

Now there's a thought.

. . . [to be slightly ornery . . . ] what might they be trolling for?

[Quix]

THANKS. I didn't know that for sure. Only had the service a month or so. It helps a lot with my Alzheimer's mother. She likes animal shows.

[Quix]

YOUR ASSUMPTIONS *MAY* BE VERY FLAWED.

I can think of a number of contingencies where they would be plain wrong.

In any case, my brother was IN A POSITION TO KNOW. He AT LEAST saw the craft on a more or less daily basis operate out of a base he worked on/around. This was 30+ years ago. I've never found any conclusive evidence to contradict him though I'd tend to believe him anyway.

He didn't even tell me a lot of details until recent years.

He was utterly insistent, confident that we had reverse engineered some stuff from crashed discs and that mostly ET's had a deal with our government wherein they taught us how to build a certain type which supposedly could not leave our either atmosphere or magnetosphere I forget which.

I am certain from other sources that he was in the geographic position/job position to know a good deal of what he was talking about. Plenty of what he has said has shown up saying the same things, describing the same things he did.

Of course, if it helps one sleep nights, one can ignore all kinds of evidence from all kinds of sources.

But have YOU ever had a brother you could trust share such things with you? If you had, would you have CHOSEN to believe him? Or would you have taken him to the nearest mental health center immediately?

[Quix]

Yeah, the exploding hamster and the more or less incest sure detracted from his character, to me.

[Stallone]

March 31, 1948? That's Al Gore's birthday?

So close to April Fools' Day, April 1, that the possibility of revisionist history looms large.

[mdmathis6]

Me...Im an RN that works in an ICU, and those are my real initials and my real last name. The 6 stands for the number of family members(myself,wife and 4 kids). I wasn't referring to personal obliqueness, I was mainly curious about the odd sorts of people that ran across in your practice and whether some things were just so anomalous about them that you had to wonder if"some of the paranoids" were right? Since privacy laws would keep you from mentioning specific cases I felt you might have been obliquely speaking of them as to protect privacy and confidentiality? So much for the long answer as to my own obliqueness.

So now that eveyone knows how vulnerable I have just made myself...how soon will the identity thefts begin.hah hah?
I use my real name here because if I'm going to shoot my mouth off, I might as well be a man about it and not hide behind a pseudonym!(the initials stand for Michael David)

[MHGinTN]

There is an interesting exchange in the episode that aired on Tuesday night (at least it was of interest to me, so I thought I'd share it).

The strange skinny guy (not paying enough attention to remember his screen name) at the 'project' airs the notion that the ET's may be trying to 'breed back' something lost in their evolution. Of all the jello slogging down the program, that notion stood out to my mind like a gorilla in the corner! Imagine, if you will, that God created Angelic beings before humankind. If Angelic beings evolved over millenia, was soemthing lost during their evolution that we humans are now to recapture with out evolving species? Is there something about 'faith' as a most powerful force that requires (forGod-approved usage) the exercise of it to begin while protected from absolute truth? Assuming Satan was cast down for some very good reason of God's choosing, from a heavenly realm, is there a lost trait now being evolved with humankind, a trait that would have precluded Satan's rebellion and the fellow 'bad' angels cast down with him? The notion, though offered in that fictional context, lit a fire in my brain when I heard it. Angels are ET's by definition, aren't they?

[spectre]

WEll, the little girl, Allie, is giving life to an otherwise dull and boring show.

I committed myself, so I'll keep watching. Blush.

sw

[mdmathis6]

The world complains about our "arrogant" attitudes. Our intelligence agencies have been doing a sloppy job about keeping track of our enemies, but on the other hand..if we had such technology, our enemies would be a moot point, when the time and situations were "just right"!

Maybe there is a reason why Clinton acted so smugly arrogant and why Bush acts like a velvet glove with a steal fist just underneath! Pravda, though in the past was somewhat suspect in its journalistic integrity, recently published an expose on some of America's black ops programs and quoted Russian military personnel as being pessimistic that they could ever catch up with America, in that its secret aircraft and weapon technologies were quantum leaps beyond anything that that the rest of the world had for the forseeable future...and I'm just paraphrasing the article.

The Russians claim that mach9 air craft of US design have already crossed over Russian airspace at such a height that AAM's could not reach them, effectively dominating near space altitudes. They claim that we have a triangular wedge shaped craft 700 feet a side powered by a gravitational distortion generator powered by a small nuclear power plant with hydrogen/oxygen combustion engines on each side of the "wedge" with a crew compartment that turns 360 degrees allowing instantaneous position changes at high speeds, protected by inertial effects caused by the high speed changes, its effective speed being well above mach nine and its flight ceiling being up to 100 miles out, basically low Earth orbit. Popular Science magazine published declassified(summer 2001) plans by the Airforce, in which they tacitly admitted to experimenting with lifting bodies with nuclear power plants aboard, designed for 1-2 months missions operating in low Earth orbit...the Air force, of course refused to confirm or deny that any working technology has come out of this experimenting. A retired Airforce officer filmed and anomalous object flying through a jet contrail near Albany(I saw the film), two months ago with glowing orbs at the center of each of its 4 sides traveling at a multimach speed.

Clearly something is cooking and the info about it is being released insuch a way as to give our potential enemies pause before they even think about trying to attack us, at least in an overt way. We'll going to have trouble with the lone terrorist cells for a long time to come, unfortunately.

[Quix]

THANKS.

The people I met in my counseling have tended to NOT be people involved in highly secret government stuff. Occasionally. But it's pretty risky for them to be involved in any kind of counseling.

But San Diego has lots of retired as well as active folk. One meets them in churches, hobby groups etc. I also worked for 2 years in a Navy Human Relations project.

I use other names for a variety of reasons. I have fantasies of returning to more restrictive parts of Asia. I may have already shot myself in more than my foot being as bold as I have hereon about various governments there. But I still have fantasies of returning and teaching etc.

And, somtimes just putting some kind of control spigot on the masses that tend to want time can be important.

Blessings,

[Quix]

Certainly angels are ET's by definition.

There is at least one race of ET's that is purportedly ready to "prove" holographically--with holographic video of the past that THEY created man; Christ; Buddah etc.

And some certainly purport that they are from our future.

It's a complex thicken to plot [the whole subject--not particularly the show].

I think the above assertions are--at LEAST the first one--not Biblical.

Genesis: "Let US make man in OUR image" is certainly curious. But the Trinity could easily take care of that.

Christ as THE ONLY BEGOTTEN of the Father is NOT a genetically engineered Savior to profer an essentially false religion to bring order to murderous mankind.

Tim Snodgrass's UFO report should be very interesting sorting out from his experiences and perspective evil from angelic ET's/UFO's.

My own criteria--do they confess that Jesus came in the flesh; died on The Cross for our Salvation and the Salvation and restoration of all things; Rose again on the 3rd day etc.

Beyond that--"My sheep know my voice."

Anyway--thanks.

[Quix]

In terms of dull and boring, I virtually never only watch TV. I at least compute; compute and talk on the phone; read--usually a combination of things.

Given the exposure I've had to UFO material for 40 or so years . . . it's uncommon for a show to present something new. We shall see.

[Quix]

Thanks, have missed some POP SCI issues in the move.

You shared some details about the Russian article that I hadn't read.

I also think that the puppet masters behind the scenes who evidently control so many things toward a world government will not allow many things out until it suits THEIR purposes.

One question I have is . . . Is Rumsfeld a puppet master?

[spectre]

I noticed from your home page, that you are into Bible Codes. If you haven't heard of Kathleen Keating and her website, you would appreciate her. She runs a search on Bible Code for current events. She also has a book "The Final Warning".

Somehow, I think you know about her..grins.

sw

[Quix]

THANKS.

Actually, I don't recall her at all. I'll check her out.

I get to the codes very irregularly tough I have a subscription to the BibleCodesDigest.com folks.

[Quix]

WOW--quite a lot of codes.

Downloaded a bunch of her codes. Not sure all are as significant as she says but I haven't looked at them closely. Some of them seem to have pretty short words. Nevertheless, even some of those with short words seem to make almost a normal sentence.

But some seem incredible. Certainly seem confirming of a lot of stuff a lot of sources have been telling us about coming times and world gov etc.

I should give the URL.

http://www.finalwarningthebook.com/bcode.shtml

Looks like a good resource to me.