SMALLPOX AND FORCED VACCINATION: WHAT EVERY AMERICAN NEEDS TO KNOW

It appears that Dr. Zelicoff IS the motivating force behind this smallpox vaccination idea...

Government to Expand Plan for Smallpox Vaccinations

If you read some of the recent material that I have just found, that is NOT a comforting thought.

I'll tell him you dont approve

I'll tell him you dont approve

What do you think about the fact that MANY of the preemiment people in medicine disagree with the value of vaccines in general? Do you think it a good idea to lower the resistance to smallpox of the US population? Especially if there IS a superstrain available?

What do you think about the fact that MANY of the preemiment people in medicine disagree with the value of vaccines in general

I'm a layman but you and I would probably disagree on the definition of "many", "preeminent" and "value". And I am ready to call it quits on this argument as I dont think it is productive. All I can say is that Thoreau was all for civil disobediance and I see plenty of merit in his argument.However there are concequences ...Thoreau went to jail I believe. Should we be attacked by a bio-terrroist,I will be in line to get a shot....You can do what you want. Good luck.

When I first started this thread, I was simply trying to put out some facts that have been established in relation to this dilemma we face. I didn't know where it would lead. Now, it is becoming apparent that there IS VERY REAL cause for concern. I only wish to educate, and hope that those who have the power to shape policy will look into some of the more pertinant information on this thread.

I'd say this is one of the most compelling set of facts that I have seen in this matter that we ALL need to be aware of. Myself, I find this to be of utmost importance to our Country. We won't get a second chance if we as a Nation get it wrong the first time around..

DOCTORS AND SCIENTISTS CONDEMN VACCINATION

DOCTORS AND SCIENTISTS CONDEMN VACCINATION

"There is a great deal of evidence to prove that immunisation of children does more harm than good."
Dr J Anthony Morris, former Chief Vaccine Control Officer, US Food
and Drug Administration

"The greatest threat of childhood disease lies in the dangerous and
ineffectual efforts made to prevent them through mass immunisation."
Dr R. Mendelsohn, Author and Professor of Paediatrics

"In our opinion, there is now sufficient evidence of immune malfunction following current vaccination programmes to anticipate growing public demands for research investigation into alternative methods of prevention of infectious disease."
Dr's H. Buttram and J. Hoffman, Vaccinations and Immune Malfunctions

"All vaccination has the effect of directing the three values of the blood
into or toward the zone characteristics of cancer and leukemia...Vaccines DO predispose to cancer and leukaemia."
Professor L.C. Vincent, founder of Bioelectronics

"Every vaccine carries certain hazards and can produce inward reactions in some people...in general, there are more vaccine complications than is generally appreciated."
Professor George Dick, London University

"Official data have shown that the large-scale vaccinations undertaken in the US have failed to obtain any significant improvement of the diseases against which they were supposed to provide protection."
Dr A. Sabin, developer of the Oral Polio vaccine

"In addition to the many obvious cases of mortality from these practises,
there are also long-term hazards which are almost impossible to estimate
accurately...the inherent danger of of all vaccine procedures should be a
deterrent to their unnecessary or unjustifiable use."
Sir Graham Wilson, The Hazards of Immunisation

"Laying aside the very real possibility that the various vaccines are
contaminated with animal viruses and may cause serious illness later in life (multiple sclerosis, cancer, leukaemia, etc) we must consider whether the vaccines really work for their intended purpose."
Dr W.C. Douglas, Cutting Edge, 1990

"The only wholly safe vaccine is a vaccine that is never used"
Dr James A. Shannon, National Institute of Health, USA

With reference to Smallpox;

"Vaccination is a monstrosity, a misbegotten offspring of error and
ignorance, it should have no place in either hygiene or medicine...Believe not in vaccination, it is a world-wide delusion, an unscientific practise, a fatal superstition with consequences measured today by tears and sorrow without end."
Professor Chas Rauta, University of Perguia, Italy , 1899

"Vaccination does not protect, it actually renders its subjects more
susceptible by depressing vital power and diminishing natural resistance, and millions of people have died of smallpox which they contracted after being vaccinated."
Dr J.W. Hodge , The Vaccination Superstition

"It is nonsense to think that you can inject pus - and it is usually from the pustule end of the dead smallpox victim … it is unthinkable that you can inject that into a little child and in any way improve its health. What is true of vaccination is exactly as true of all forms of serum immunisation, if we could by any means build up a natural resistance to disease through these artificial means, I would applaud it to the echo, but we can't do it."
Dr William Howard Hay (1937)

"Immunisation against smallpox is more hazardous than the disease itself."
Professor Ari Zuckerman, World Health Organisation

With reference to Whooping Cough;

"There is no doubt in my mind that in the UK alone some hundreds, if not thousands of well infants have suffered irreparable brain damage needlessly and that their lives and those of their parents have been wrecked in consequence."
Professor Gordon Stewart, University of Glasgow, 1980

"My suspicion, which is shared by others in my profession, is that the
nearly 10,000 SIDS deaths that occur in the US each year are related to one or more of the vaccines that are routinely given to children. The pertussis (whooping cough) vaccine is the most likely villain , but it could also be one or more of the others."
Dr R Mendelsohn, Author and Professor of Paediatrics, 1985

"The worst vaccine of all is the whooping cough vaccine...it is responsible for a lot of deaths and for a lot of infants suffering irreversible brain damage.."
Dr Archie Kalokerinos, Author and Vaccine Researcher, 1987

With reference to Polio;

"Many here voice a silent view that the Salk and Sabin polio vaccine, being made of monkey kidney tissue has been directly responsible for the major increase in leukaemia in this country."
Dr F. Klenner, Polio Researcher, USA

"No batch of vaccine can be proved to be safe before it is given to
children"
Surgeon General Leonard Scheele, USA, 1955

"Live virus vaccines against influenza and paralytic polio, for example, may in each instance cause the disease it is intended to prevent..."
Dr Jonas Salk, developer of first polio vaccine, Science, 1977

GRAPHICAL EVIDENCE SHOWS VACCINES DIDN'T SAVE US

HISTORICAL FACTS EXPOSING THE DANGERS AND INEFFECTIVENESS OF VACCINES

DOCTORS AND SCIENTISTS CONDEMN VACCINATION

WHY VACCINES ARE INEFFECTIVE

WHY VACCINES ARE HARMFUL

WHY VACCINATION CONTINUES

THE BENEFICIAL NATURE OF CHILDHOOD INFECTION

HEALTH - THE ONLY IMMUNITY

THE HOPEWOOD CHILDREN - AUSTRALIA'S HEALTHIEST KIDS

And SOME even recommend fluoride treatments. We now know that they pose unwarranted risks and provide little or no beneficial effect. SOME even used to sell snake oil, but it wasn't rather useful as we now understand.

Could you expand on this point? I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

Acceptable limits are set so as to define where a KNOWN toxic reaction will more than likely occur if that limit is exceeded. ANY amount of toxin is still more than one would WANT to consume. In my book, if I can AVOID a toxin, I avoid it.

NO. NO. NO! We consume "toxins" every day. Do you eat foods with salt in them? OF course you do. But chlorine is a toxin, yet I don't see anybody recommending we completely stop using salt.

Once again, I'm dealing with science, not hysteria. Show me a toxicologist that denies the axiom "the dose make the poison".

Do you support congress trying to lower the arsenic levels in water?

Although calcium fluoride may well be common in water, it is only in SOME areas where there are high concentrations.

And now you prove you know NOTHING about chemistry. When calcium fluoride, or scilicofluoride, or any other fluoride compound gets into water, the fluoride ion dissociates from the other compounds in the molecule. Therefore a fluoride ion from one compound is exactly the same as a fluoride ion from another compound.

You should study basic chemistry before you try to debate this stuff.

And the relation to fluoride in general remains unchanged, whereas the studies indicate that a high exposure to fluoride DOES in fact result in lower IQ.

Please, lets stick to normal levels of fluoride. I know leaving out fluoride poisoning cases VASTLY limits your argument, but uing those cases is like using chlorine poisoning deaths to ban table salt.

The fact of the matter is that fluorine is the 13th most common element on the planet. It is in practically ALL water supplies, and it is at or over the recommened limits in around 30-40% of the country. So there are tens of millions of people who have fluoride in their water, and have had it in their water since we got here. Why aren't they sick?

Then maybe I should help you refresh your memory.

Only after you take a remedial chemistry course.

And I should say, I've been on all the anti-fluoride sites. The reason I joined FR back in 99 was to counter some of these lies in a post I saw. So there's nothing you've posted that I haven't seen or debunked.

Could you expand on this point? I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

Try taking a course in remedial English.

NO. NO. NO! We consume "toxins" every day.

Many of which we consume BECAUSE of people like you who think it's perfectly ok to dump POISONS into watersystems.

Do you eat foods with salt in them? OF course you do. But chlorine is a toxin, yet I don't see anybody recommending we completely stop using salt.

And that is BECAUSE NaCl is a necessary NUTRIENT. Although it does decompose into Na+ and Cl-, the sodium and chlorine are VITAL to our wellbeing and are needed to form electrolytes and are critical to body chemistry and functions. Any excess chlorine is easy passed through our bodies and excreted. Fluorine has NO nutritional value, and IS simply a toxin. It is NOT excreted, and due to its highly reactive nature, bonds with calcium in our bodies.

Once again, I'm dealing with science, not hysteria. Show me a toxicologist that denies the axiom "the dose make the poison".

You are a charlatan and a huckster. Your attempt to discredit the vast number of esteemed scientists, doctors, microbiologists, biophysicists, biochemists, and other highly respected individuals that have put forth evidence that fluoride IS a biohazard and should be avoided, is nothing more than a vain exercise in self-glorification and is unbelievably void of any rational argument.

The LESS toxin one consumes the BETTER. The levels of fluoride consumed by the average person in this country is WAY over what is acceptable, and DOES cause problems. Try reading the material that I have posted to you earlier, if you can even UNDERSTAND what it says.

Do you support congress trying to lower the arsenic levels in water?

If it's a matter of simply avoiding the DUMPING of arsenic into the water, of course.

And now you prove you know NOTHING about chemistry.

Oh, and how is that Mr. Wizard?

When calcium fluoride, or scilicofluoride, or any other fluoride compound gets into water, the fluoride ion dissociates from the other compounds in the molecule.

That IS true of fluorides, and that IS one of the problems with fluorides, as flourine ions are EASILY liberated from their ionic bond. That is what happens when you boil fluoridated water, the highly reactive fluorine ions liberated from the fluoride in the water bond to the aluminum in cookware to form the salt aluminum fluoride (AlF₃), which then contaminates the water and the food IN the water.

Therefore a fluoride ion from one compound is exactly the same as a fluoride ion from another compound.

Yes, but as it DOES easily bond with metals and then forms a compound, such as the compound formed as explained above, aluminum fluoride, it poses a threat when it passes the brain blood barrier. Once inside the brain, it liberates from the aluminum and the ALUMINUM bonds with NEURONS in the brain. The fluorine ion then travels out of the brain through the blood stream and bonds with calcium in the body, causing skeletal fluorosis.

You should study basic chemistry before you try to debate this stuff.

Bwahahaha. You've GOT to be kidding me. Your little lecture on fluorine ions did not coherently state anything. A fluorine ion is a fluorine ion, AND? And WHAT?

Please, lets stick to normal levels of fluoride. I know leaving out fluoride poisoning cases VASTLY limits your argument, but uing those cases is like using chlorine poisoning deaths to ban table salt.

Chorine ions are not highly reactive, whereas FLUORINE IONS are. It is the fact that fluorine is THE most reactive element in the periodic table that makes it so dangerous. And that is why fluorides are so easily formed. In fact, during the uranium refinement process, fluorine gas is used to refine uranium ore. By subjecting uranium ore to the fluorine gas, the uranium ions are liberated from the ore forming uranium hexafluoride UF₆. That is why fluorine is one of the most hazardous elements known to man. It is used to create nerve gas, rat poison, and many pesticides. It has NO nutritional value.

It is in practically ALL water supplies, and it is at or over the recommened limits in around 30-40% of the country.

Why don't you try posting some link to that. IF that is true, it is most likely BECAUSE of fluoridation.

So there are tens of millions of people who have fluoride in their water, and have had it in their water since we got here. Why aren't they sick?

Try reading some of the links I provided earlier. Then tell me people aren't getting sick.

Only after you take a remedial chemistry course.

I'm surprised that you can even SPELL chemistry.

And I should say, I've been on all the anti-fluoride sites. The reason I joined FR back in 99 was to counter some of these lies in a post I saw.

WELL, that explains a few things...

So there's nothing you've posted that I haven't seen or debunked.

Oh, I'm sure you've SEEN some of this info alright. You HAVE NOT DEBUNKED it, although you HAVE jumped up and down, held your breath, and skipped all over the place...

With all your handwaving, I'm suprised you haven't taken flight.

You type a lot, but don't say anything.

Your attempt to discredit the vast number of esteemed scientists, doctors, microbiologists, biophysicists, biochemists, and other highly respected individuals that have put forth evidence that fluoride IS a biohazard and should be avoided,

OK, lets have a contest. He who posts the most number of scientists that agree with their side wins. OK?

And that is BECAUSE NaCl is a necessary NUTRIENT.

BUT IT'S A TOXIN!!! How can you let yourself consume it! How can something that is a toxin be good for you at the same time?

. Fluorine has NO nutritional value, and IS simply a toxin.

Fluoride have been proven for over 50 years to be useful in preventing decay. That make is a valuable nutrient.

It is NOT excreted,

THAT IS A COMPLETE AND TOTAL LIE. Fluoride is constantly excreted in urine.

You are a charlatan and a huckster.

See the bald-faced lie above.

Bwahahaha. You've GOT to be kidding me. Your little lecture on fluorine ions did not coherently state anything. A fluorine ion is a fluorine ion, AND? And WHAT?

You said in your previous post:

Although calcium fluoride may well be common in water, it is only in SOME areas where there are high concentrations.

As I pointed out, there is no such thing as "calcium fluoride in water". It dissociates into Ca and Fl. You are implying that there is some kind of difference between natural fluoride and added fluoride.

Why don't you try posting some link to that. IF that is true, it is most likely BECAUSE of fluoridation.

You are lying again. Fluoride is a naturally occurring element, the 13th most common. And it is commonly found at levels HIGHER than the adjusted levels in treated water.

Searching very quickly, here are some numbers from New Hampshire. Note that they specify that the levels are NATURALLY OCCURRING:

Concentration Codes in mg/L
(Blank) = greater than 2.0
* = 1.5 to 1.9
** = 1.0 to 1.4

Albany
Golden Oak MHP*

Allenstown
Bear Brook Villa MHP**
Bear Brook Grdn MHP*

Alton
Lakeview Water Co
Whispering Springs **

Amherst
Middle School**

Antrim
Breezy Point

Bartlett
     Attitash Woods
     Attitash Mtn. Side
     Bartlett Place
     Bear Village South
     Birch Hill East I
     Birch Hill East II
     Birch Hill West
     Birchview by Saco
     Blueberry Condo
     Cathedral Ledge
     Cathedral Trail Lodge*
     Christmas Mtn.
     Cobb Farm
     Crawford Pond
     Crawford Hills*
     Eagle Ridge
     Four Seasons
     Goodrich Joint Venture
     Glen Acres
     Holiday Ridge
     Linderhoff Mtn.
     Linderhoff Golf
     Mittenwald
     North Ledge
     Nordic Village
     Partridge Woods
     Riverbend
     Rocky River
     Rolling Ridge
     Saco Ridge
     Saco River
     Stillings Grant
     Top Notch
     Whispering Brook

Barnstead
Elementary School**
Locke Lake **

Barrington
Old Stage Apt.
Ellison Farm Apt **

Bedford
Caryle Place**
Magdalyn College**

Bennington
South Facing Condo**

Bethlehem
Profile High Sch. **

Bow
     Bela Brook **
     Bow Elementary *
     Bovie Screen Printing**
     Concord General Life **
     Evergreen Dr*.
     Grappone Toyota**
     Grappone Truck **
     Granite State Gyn**
     NH Auto Dealers *
     Pitco Frylator **
     White Rock (treated)
     501 South St.*

Bradford
Kearsarge School**
Fischerfield Apt**

Brentwood
Val D'isare **

Bridgewater
     Newfound MHP
     Wagon wheel Inn *
     Whip-0-Will MHP*

Bristol
Red Fox Village**

Campton
     Chesley MHP*
     Coachmen Apt*
     Deer Run
     Puckerbrush*
     Waterville Est.*
     Village Pond*

Candia
Moore Sch.
Goff Chevrolet **

Chester
Chester School

Conway
     Birch Hill
     Birch Hill west
     Brookview
     Cedar Creek (Treated)
     Center of Hope*
     Conway Municipal Ctr
     Conway East
     Davis Hill
     Deerbrook
     Echo Lake Woods
     Forest Edge
     Hales Est
     Hunting Ridge*
     Melody Pines (Treated)
     N. Pines
     Pine Tree Sch.
     Rockhouse Mt.
     Saco Pines
     Saco Woods**
     South Pines

Croyden
Croyden Vill. Sch.

Danbury
Danbury Elem Sch. *

Derry
Overlook Dev**
East Derry Mem. Sch.

Effingham
     Effingham Central Sch.
     Highwatch Rehab. *
     Lost Valley
     Rye Field Apt.*

Epping
     Epping Mun.Water
     (Brw only)*
     Green Pastures

Franconia
Mittersill Dev.

Freedom
     Lake Ossippe Village*
     Freedom Village*
     Pine Landing

Gilford
     Ashley Commons
     Bachelor Mt.
     Broadview*
     Brookside Crossing*
     Cherry Valley **
     Cherry Valley **
     Diamond View *
     Gunstock Glen*
     Gunstock Acres
     Gilford Square Plaza**
     Middle School **
     Vernitron Manuf.

Gilmanton
Crystal Springs*
Elementary School**

Grantham
Village School
Yanke Barn Homes **

Hampton
State Liquor Store **

Hamstead
Village Green*
Hampstead Area W.*

Hancock
Wayne Green**

Hillsboro
Emerald Lake Dist.

Holderness
Livermore MHP*
Highland Links

Hopkinton
     Digital *
     Hoague Sprague*
     Papertech*

Hudson
Francour Apt*

Jackson
Eagle Mtn House
Wildcat Resort*

Jefferson
Elementary School**

Kingston
Bayberry Business Bldg

Laconia
Lakes Reg. Day Care**

Lempster
Goshen Lempster Sch.**

Lincoln
Lincoln Water Works
(Loon Area)

Londonderry
     Mtn. Home Est*
     Wagon Wheels **
     Olde Country*

Loudon
Elementary School
Pine Ridge Est **

Lyme
Lyme Central School
Barnes/Plains School*

Lyndeboro
Lyndeboro School**

Madison
     Brookwood
     Eidelweiss **
     Madison Elem Sch
     NH Welfare
     Silver Shores

Meredith
     Carrier MHP
     Grouse Point**
     Interlakes Elem. MHP *
     Interlakes School **
     NH Elect. Coop**.
     Sky Acres*

Middleton
Sunrise lake

Milford
     Ashley Commons
     Fairhaven MHP**
     Leisure Village **

Moultonborough
     Academy School**
     Central Sch.**
     Elementary School**
     Far Echo
     Kilnwood on Kant.*
     Paradise Shores
     Harborside*
     Swissvale*
     Wentworth Acres

New Boston
Elementary School**

Newbury
Newbury Elem Sch

New Hampton
Northern Insulation

New Ipswich
     Appleton School**
     Boynton Middle School
     Mascenic High School

New London
Slope and Shore*

Newton
Willowbrook Mall **

New Durham
Copple Crown

Nottingham
Nottingham Elem.**

Ossipee
     Ames
     Carroll C. Home
     (Brw only*)
     Pine River MHP *
     Scandia
     Shop and Save

Peterborough
     The Well School**
     Monadnock School**
     Summerhill Nursing

Plaistow
     Howard Manor
     Plaza 160
     Sweethill Kindergarden
     Twin Ridge **

Plymouth
     Calvary Christain Sch
     NH Elec. Coop
     Tenny Brook Condos**
     Village Square Plaza

Rindge
     Monadnock MHP
     Meeting House School**
     Carriage Apt**.

Rochester
     Amazon MHP*
     Profile Apt*
     Terrace MHP **

Rumney
Hawkenson Ent.

Sunapee
Meadowbrook at Sun.*

Sutton
Central School**

Stratford
N. Stratford MHP

Swanzey
California Brook Est.

Tamworth
     Chocrua Woods
     ChocoruaMeadows (Tre)
     Community School
     Pine Tree Power Ind.
     Scandia Est MHP *
     State Police*

Temple
Elementary School*

Thornton
     Falls at Mills Brook
     Mtn River Condo West*
     Star Ridge
     White Mtn. Condo
     White Mt Resort/Gateway
     Waterville Acres*

Tuftonboro
Central School**
North Country Village

Waterville Valley
Waterville Val. Mun**

Weare
Hoit Mills
Middle School

Webster
Elementary School**
Pillsbury Lake Dist*

Wentworth
Wentworth Elem. Sch.

Westmoreland
Elementary School*
Wilkes Const*

Whitefield
Whitefield Precinct*

Wilton
PVA-EPVA*

Wolfeboro
     Center of Hope Manuf.
     Birchhill MHP**
     Wentworth Acres

Now, please tell me how this can be such a terrible poison when it is present in almost ALL water supplies?

OK, lets have a contest. He who posts the most number of scientists that agree with their side wins. OK?

I doubt you'd find ONE reputable scientist that agrees with you. I'm sure you might find some on the ADA payroll and some at the aluminum factories that might back you, but that is the ONLY support you would find.

In other words, NEUTRAL parties would NOT support your position, as MOST if not ALL medical researchers, biophysicists, microbiologists, and public health officials KNOW that fluoride is hazardous and totally unnecessary for bodily functions and mechanisms.

FL: And that is BECAUSE NaCl is a necessary NUTRIENT.

TomB: BUT IT'S A TOXIN!!! How can you let yourself consume it! How can something that is a toxin be good for you at the same time?

Boy you ARE dense. It is a NUTRIENT numnuts. Are you too lazy to click on the link I provided that explains that is is ESSENTIAL for vital body functions? Go back to the link I posted and READ IT. Here, I'll provide AGAIN in case you are too LAZY to go back and find the link in the previous post.

Ions: The Body's Electrical Energy Source

TomB: Fluoride have been proven for over 50 years to be useful in preventing decay. That make is a valuable nutrient.

It's been PROVEN that is is USELESS and actually CAUSES motling of the teeth. It also makes teeth more brittle leading to cracked teeth. In fact, there IS no direct correlation between the application of fluoride and fewer cavities. It IS a fact that the frequency of cavities went down PRIOR to the introduction of fluoride into water systems. And it IS a fact that the body does NOT use fluorine in ANY cell function or process. It IS simply a toxin.

FL: Fluorine has NO nutritional value, and IS simply a toxin. It is NOT excreted, and due to its highly reactive nature, bonds with calcium in our bodies.

TomB: THAT IS A COMPLETE AND TOTAL LIE. Fluoride is constantly excreted in urine.

Although I DID say flourine rather than fluoride, it IS true that flourides are excreted. In fact, flourine ions are as well. I was simply working off the top of my head and was assuming FLOURINE IONS were NOT excreted. But I'll admit I'm wrong when I'm wrong. So yes, both fluorides and fluorine ions are excreted. In fact, here's a link to that very information..

FLUORINE AND FLUORIDES

So yes, I made a mistake. HOWEVER, in relation to some of YOUR statements, which ARE bald faced LIES, it is quite an innocent oversight.

If you ARE seriously interested in the process of fluoride excretion, as well as the health effects of ingested fluoride, why don't you read up on the subject. I'll give you a link in case you are interested..

Health Effects of Ingested Fluoride

See the bald-faced lie above.

Again, you are a charlatan and a huckster.

TomB: As I pointed out, there is no such thing as "calcium fluoride in water". It dissociates into Ca and Fl. You are implying that there is some kind of difference between natural fluoride and added fluoride.

From Flouride Fact Sheet:

The fluoride naturally found in water is calcium fluoride (CaF2 ) as fluorine has a strong affinity to calcium. When water is artificially fluoridated sodium fluoride (NaF), sodium silicofluoride or hydrofluosilic acid is added. Because calcium bonds relatively strongly with the fluoride ion, the fluoride ions are much less available than in the artificially-produced fluoride. The artificial compounds are more toxic because they are more soluble in water and the fluoride dissociates from the compound. In the body this fluoride becomes the "most exclusive bone seeking element, owing to its affinity for calcium phosphate". Studies have shown that the lethal dose of NaF is approximately 50 times smaller than that of CaF2 (naturally-occurring fluoride).1

So AGAIN you prove your ignorance. That or you are simply LYING.

TomB: It is in practically ALL water supplies, and it is at or over the recommened limits in around 30-40% of the country.

FL: Why don't you try posting some link to that. IF that is true, it is most likely BECAUSE of fluoridation.

TomB: You are lying again. Fluoride is a naturally occurring element, the 13th most common. And it is commonly found at levels HIGHER than the adjusted levels in treated water.

There you go with YOUR lies again. For ONE, your link doesn't work, so I can't even verify if the figures you listed in your chart are in fact related to NATURALLY occuring fluoride.

Secondly, NATURAL fluoride in the form of calcium fluoride is NOT as soluable as the artificial fluorides that they use to fluoridate water supplies. As such, the EPA limit for NATURALLY OCCURING fluoride is 4.0 mg/L.

From the list you provide, we can't see any level over 2.0 mg/L, as they simply don't list the value if the concentration IS over 2.0 mg/L.

From The Fluoride Debate

Under the Safe Drinking Water Act, the EPA has established drinking water standards for a number of substances, including fluoride, in order to protect the public's health. There are several areas in the United States where the ground water contains higher than optimal levels of naturally occurring fluoride. Therefore, federal regulations were established to require that naturally occurring fluoride levels in a community water supply not exceed a concentration of 4.0 mg/L.202 Under the Safe Drinking Water Act, this upper limit is the Maximum Contaminant Level (MCL) for fluoride. Under the MCL standard, if the naturally occurring level of fluoride in a public water supply exceeds the MCL (4.0 mg/L for fluoride), the water supplier is required to lower the level of fluoride below the MCL. This process is called defluoridation.

And FINALLY, you pick an area that DOES have naturally occuring fluoride in water. You did NOT supply ANY evidence that 30-40% of the nation's water supplies exceed the limit, you did NOT show this to be true in naturally occuring cases, and you did NOT show that fluoridation is NOT the culprit if your figures are correct.

In fact, you are being purposely misleading and deceptive.

TomB: Now, please tell me how this can be such a terrible poison when it is present in almost ALL water supplies?

As already stated, naturally occuring fluoride does NOT dissolve as readily as artifical fluorides, and it is 50 times less toxic. It is also EXCRETED more readily as it IS less soluable.

Whoever decided to turn than ou to uo anyways?

FLOURIDE=FLUORIDE
FLOURINE=FLUORINE

LOL

This is almost as funny as:

"Save Your Vaccination Rights...
Vote Democrat!"

Take a look at post 310 then come back and tell me how funny you think this is..

In fact, if you want a good chuckle over the thimerasol issue, take a look at post 6...

Your whole argument seems to be based on some cut-and-paste jobs from your typical anitfluoride sites:

The fluoride naturally found in water is calcium fluoride (CaF2 ) as fluorine has a strong affinity to calcium. When water is artificially fluoridated sodium fluoride (NaF), sodium silicofluoride or hydrofluosilic acid is added. Because calcium bonds relatively strongly with the fluoride ion, the fluoride ions are much less available than in the artificially-produced fluoride. The artificial compounds are more toxic because they are more soluble in water and the fluoride dissociates from the compound. In the body this fluoride becomes the "most exclusive bone seeking element, owing to its affinity for calcium phosphate". Studies have shown that the lethal dose of NaF is approximately 50 times smaller than that of CaF2 (naturally-occurring fluoride).1

This sounds great to someone who doesn't know chemistry, but it is absolute bunk.

When you put a chemical into water, it dissociates into its constituent ions, fine, we argee with that.

Depending on what affinity the cation has for the anion, the amounts of free ions will reach a certain concentration in the water. So what we have here is that, in one case we add compunds to the water to bring the flouride ion concentration to the proper level (.8 to 1 ppm). In natural conditions, we have ground water seeping through rocks and dissolving them on the way to the aquifer. In that case we have those fluoride bearing rocks giving off their fluoride ions, eventually reaching a concentration dependent upon the compounds in the rock.

But once the fluoride ion gets into the water, it doesn't matter where it came from. The level of fluoride is the measure of the FREE FLUORIDE IONS, not the fluoride still held in compound. All the differences in affinity means is that you need to add more of one compound to get a certain concentration than another.

I doubt you'd find ONE reputable scientist that agrees with you.

Linus Pauling.

It is a NUTRIENT numnuts.

So chlorine isn't dangerous in large amounts?

IOW, things can't be both good for you in small amounts and bad for you in large amounts?

And FINALLY, you pick an area that DOES have naturally occuring fluoride in water.

Yes. That is my entire point. There are areas in the country that have high levels of flouride, and always have. Yet you can't show increased rates of disease in those areas.

BTW, here is a good link to the New Hampshire DES. It states specifically that the fluoride is naturally occurring.

As already stated, naturally occuring fluoride does NOT dissolve as readily as artifical fluorides, and it is 50 times less toxic. It is also EXCRETED more readily as it IS less soluable.

You are really missing the boat here. Once dissolved in water, there is NO DIFFERENCE between fluoride ions taken from different compounds. None.

And I apologize for calling you a liar. You probably aren't lying, just very, very confused.

http://www.nofluoride.com/

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/07/15/MN193825.DTL

This sounds great to someone who doesn't know chemistry, but it is absolute bunk.

No, it'd be the other way around actually.

Listen, anyone can go look this stuff up in any chemistry book. Anyone who KNOWS chemistry will see through your arguments.

Obviously, if anyone did a Google search on calcium fluoride, they'd see what the facts are in relation to that. If you want to say there's no such thing, or that it falls apart in water where it is no longer calcium fluoride, there isn't much use in pursuing this, as you will just continue to make stuff up as you go.

If you want to say up is down and left is right, well, there isn't any point in discussing this any furthur. I really have more important things to do.

Good day.

Listen, anyone can go look this stuff up in any chemistry book. Anyone who KNOWS chemistry will see through your arguments.

Then do it. Show me how an ion of fluoride from calcium fluoride is different from an ion of fluoride from sodium silicofluoride.

The fact of the matter is that free fluoride ions are naturally occurring in almost all water supplies. You are trying to scare people that fluoride at this level is somehow damgerous, yet you can't tell me why most of the country isn't sick.

Now tell me. What is the difference between "natural" Fluoride and "supplemental" fluoride?

The hullaballoo over whether to vaccinate or not kind of escapes me. There are risks to any vaccine, but what you do is weigh the risk of getting sick from the vaccination (which is very rare) against the risk of getting sick from the disease (and diseases like that will kill or otherwise permenantly mark you for the rest of your life). It is more likely that a person will get sick from a disease than a vaccination.

It's like taking your children to have them immunized. There is a chance that something can happen, but it is a small chance. I'd rather get my kids immunized than take my chances with them getting sick, paralyzed, or dead.

When you put a chemical into water, it dissociates into its constituent ions, fine, we argee with that.

It depends on whether or not the chemical is SOLUBLE. There is also a characteristic known as SOLUBILITY. A soluble compound will DISSOLVE in a SOLVENT such as water, but only until the solvent reaches SATURATION for that soluble compound.

That point where a SOLUTION reaches saturation for that compound is known as the MAXIMUM SOLUBILITY for that compound.

Table 1.

Fluoride	Maximum Solubility
Calcium fluoride	16 ppm at 18°C (c. 1-62,500)
	17 ppm at 26°C
Sodium fluoride	42,200 ppm at 18°C (c. 1-25)
Sodium fluosilicate	6,250 ppm at 17°C (c. 1-150)
Hydrofluosilicic acid	Miscible liquid

A you can see, calcium fluoride is MUCH less soluable than sodium fluoride. And that is EXACTLY where the problem lies.

For more information, refer to the following link:

Fluoridation: Aspects of toxicity

From the above link,

Calcium fluoride (caF2), which occurs naturally, is not included in the Poisons List. This is because natural fluoride is not very soluble in water. Substances used in the artificial fluoridation of the public water supply are *sodium fluoride (NaF), sodium fluorosilicate (Na2SiF6), and hydrofluosilicic acid (H2SiF6). These artificial fluorides are highly soluble in water (References 1 and 2) see Table 1, and are highly toxic substances.

The fact of the matter is that free fluoride ions are naturally occurring in almost all water supplies. You are trying to scare people that fluoride at this level is somehow damgerous, yet you can't tell me why most of the country isn't sick.

The NUMBER of free ions is DRASTICALLY less when the solute is calcium fluoride as opposed to sodium fluoride. You are trying to say that solutes totally dissolve no matter how much solute you have. That is a false statement. If that were true, there would be no such thing as salt water, it would simply be a sea of free ions. We know that isn't the case.

I'm not trying to scare anybody, I'm just speaking facts here. It is just a fact that there is MUCH information on this topic, and there are MANY scientists that have spoken out against fluoridation. There is no reason why we should continue this discussion any furthur, as I've said all I have to say.

The NUMBER of free ions is DRASTICALLY less when the solute is calcium fluoride as opposed to sodium fluoride.

Before we go any further, let's make sure we are on the same page. We are discussing the supposed differences in "natural" vs "supplemental" fluorides. Correct?

IOW, I say that since there is naturally occurring fluoride around the levels we see added to water supplies, and we don't see sickness in those areas, fluoride isn't dangerous at those levels. You say that there is a difference between the predominantly natural CaFL and the artificial NaFl.

Do I have this right?

You say that there is a difference between the predominantly natural CaFL and the artificial NaFl.

Do I have this right?

Of course there is, and you can see that from the table I posted. Listen Tom, you might want to go around and around on this for days. I don't. This all started when someone threw out something like, "I bet you think fluoride is bad for you". I obviously spoke my mind on the topic since then. It IS something that we need to be attentive to, but you are free to believe whatever you wish to. All I've done is demonstrate that there are valid concerns in relation to fluoride. I'M concerned about it, and I don't want to ingest it. I shouldn't be FORCED to ingest it, nor should anybody else, and that is the point I've been trying to make...

Goodnight.