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To: FormerLurker
With all your handwaving, I'm suprised you haven't taken flight.

You type a lot, but don't say anything.

Your attempt to discredit the vast number of esteemed scientists, doctors, microbiologists, biophysicists, biochemists, and other highly respected individuals that have put forth evidence that fluoride IS a biohazard and should be avoided,

OK, lets have a contest. He who posts the most number of scientists that agree with their side wins. OK?

And that is BECAUSE NaCl is a necessary NUTRIENT.

BUT IT'S A TOXIN!!! How can you let yourself consume it! How can something that is a toxin be good for you at the same time?

. Fluorine has NO nutritional value, and IS simply a toxin.

Fluoride have been proven for over 50 years to be useful in preventing decay. That make is a valuable nutrient.

It is NOT excreted,

THAT IS A COMPLETE AND TOTAL LIE. Fluoride is constantly excreted in urine.

You are a charlatan and a huckster.

See the bald-faced lie above.

Bwahahaha. You've GOT to be kidding me. Your little lecture on fluorine ions did not coherently state anything. A fluorine ion is a fluorine ion, AND? And WHAT?

You said in your previous post:

    Although calcium fluoride may well be common in water, it is only in SOME areas where there are high concentrations.

As I pointed out, there is no such thing as "calcium fluoride in water". It dissociates into Ca and Fl. You are implying that there is some kind of difference between natural fluoride and added fluoride.

Why don't you try posting some link to that. IF that is true, it is most likely BECAUSE of fluoridation.

You are lying again. Fluoride is a naturally occurring element, the 13th most common. And it is commonly found at levels HIGHER than the adjusted levels in treated water.

Searching very quickly, here are some numbers from New Hampshire. Note that they specify that the levels are NATURALLY OCCURRING:

    The following public water systems have naturally occurring fluoride.


    Concentration Codes in mg/L
    (Blank) = greater than 2.0
      * = 1.5 to 1.9
    ** = 1.0 to 1.4
    Albany
         Golden Oak MHP*

    Allenstown
         Bear Brook Villa MHP**
         Bear Brook Grdn MHP*

    Alton
         Lakeview Water Co
         Whispering Springs **

    Amherst
         Middle School**

    Antrim
         Breezy Point 

    Bartlett
         Attitash Woods
         Attitash Mtn. Side
         Bartlett Place
         Bear Village South
         Birch Hill East I
         Birch Hill East II
         Birch Hill West
         Birchview by Saco
         Blueberry Condo
         Cathedral Ledge
         Cathedral Trail Lodge*
         Christmas Mtn.
         Cobb Farm
         Crawford Pond
         Crawford Hills*
         Eagle Ridge
         Four Seasons
         Goodrich Joint Venture
         Glen Acres 
         Holiday Ridge
         Linderhoff Mtn.
         Linderhoff Golf
         Mittenwald
         North Ledge
         Nordic Village
         Partridge Woods
         Riverbend
         Rocky River
         Rolling Ridge
         Saco Ridge
         Saco River
         Stillings Grant
         Top Notch
         Whispering Brook

    Barnstead
         Elementary School**
         Locke Lake **

    Barrington
        Old Stage Apt.
        Ellison Farm Apt **

    Bedford
         Caryle Place**
         Magdalyn College**

    Bennington
         South Facing Condo**

    Bethlehem
         Profile High Sch. **

    Bow
         Bela Brook ** 
         Bow Elementary *
         Bovie Screen Printing**
         Concord General Life **
         Evergreen Dr*.
         Grappone Toyota**
         Grappone Truck **
         Granite State Gyn**
         NH Auto Dealers *
         Pitco Frylator **
         White Rock (treated)
         501 South St.*

    Bradford
         Kearsarge School**
         Fischerfield Apt**

    Brentwood
         Val D'isare **

    Bridgewater
         Newfound MHP 
         Wagon wheel Inn *
         Whip-0-Will MHP*

    Bristol
         Red Fox Village**

    Campton
         Chesley MHP*
         Coachmen Apt*
         Deer Run 
         Puckerbrush*
         Waterville Est.*
         Village Pond*

    Candia
         Moore Sch.
         Goff Chevrolet **

    Chester
         Chester School

    Conway
         Birch Hill
         Birch Hill west
         Brookview
         Cedar Creek (Treated)
         Center of Hope*
         Conway Municipal Ctr
         Conway East
         Davis Hill
         Deerbrook
         Echo Lake Woods
         Forest Edge
         Hales Est
         Hunting Ridge*
         Melody Pines (Treated) 
         N. Pines
         Pine Tree Sch. 
         Rockhouse Mt.
         Saco Pines
         Saco Woods**
         South Pines
     

    Croyden
         Croyden Vill. Sch.

    Danbury 
         Danbury Elem Sch. *

    Derry
         Overlook Dev**
         East Derry Mem. Sch.

    Effingham
         Effingham Central Sch.
         Highwatch Rehab. *
         Lost Valley
         Rye Field Apt.* 

    Epping
         Epping Mun.Water
         (Brw only)* 
         Green Pastures

    Franconia
         Mittersill Dev.

    Freedom
         Lake Ossippe Village*
         Freedom Village*
         Pine Landing

    Gilford
         Ashley Commons
         Bachelor Mt.
         Broadview*
         Brookside Crossing*
         Cherry Valley **
         Cherry Valley **
         Diamond View *
         Gunstock Glen*
         Gunstock Acres
         Gilford Square Plaza**
         Middle School **
         Vernitron Manuf.

    Gilmanton
         Crystal Springs*
         Elementary School**

    Grantham
         Village School 
         Yanke Barn Homes **

    Hampton
         State Liquor Store **

    Hamstead
         Village Green*
         Hampstead Area W.*

    Hancock
         Wayne Green**

    Hillsboro
         Emerald Lake Dist.

    Holderness
          Livermore MHP*
         Highland Links

    Hopkinton
         Digital *
         Hoague Sprague*
         Papertech*

    Hudson
         Francour Apt*

    Jackson
         Eagle Mtn House
         Wildcat Resort*

    Jefferson
         Elementary School**

    Kingston
         Bayberry Business Bldg

    Laconia
         Lakes Reg. Day Care**

    Lempster
         Goshen Lempster Sch.**

    Lincoln
        Lincoln Water Works
        (Loon Area)

    Londonderry
         Mtn. Home Est*
         Wagon Wheels **
         Olde Country*

    Loudon
         Elementary School
         Pine Ridge Est **

    Lyme
         Lyme Central School 
         Barnes/Plains School* 

    Lyndeboro
         Lyndeboro School** 

    Madison
         Brookwood
         Eidelweiss **
         Madison Elem Sch 
         NH Welfare 
         Silver Shores 

    Meredith 
         Carrier MHP 
         Grouse Point**
         Interlakes Elem. MHP *
         Interlakes School **
         NH Elect. Coop**.
         Sky Acres*

    Middleton
         Sunrise lake 

    Milford 
         Ashley Commons
         Fairhaven MHP**
         Leisure Village **
     
     
     

     

    Moultonborough
         Academy School**
         Central Sch.**
         Elementary School**
         Far Echo
         Kilnwood on Kant.* 
         Paradise Shores
         Harborside*
         Swissvale*
         Wentworth Acres

    New Boston
         Elementary School**

    Newbury
         Newbury Elem Sch

    New Hampton
         Northern Insulation 

    New Ipswich
         Appleton School**
         Boynton Middle School
         Mascenic High School

    New London
         Slope and Shore*

    Newton
         Willowbrook Mall **

    New Durham
         Copple Crown

    Nottingham
         Nottingham Elem.**

    Ossipee
         Ames
         Carroll C. Home
         (Brw only*)
         Pine River MHP *
         Scandia
         Shop and Save

    Peterborough
         The Well School**
         Monadnock School**
         Summerhill Nursing

    Plaistow
         Howard Manor
         Plaza 160
         Sweethill Kindergarden
         Twin Ridge **

    Plymouth
         Calvary Christain Sch 
         NH Elec. Coop
         Tenny Brook Condos**
         Village Square Plaza

    Rindge
         Monadnock MHP
         Meeting House School**
         Carriage Apt**.

    Rochester
         Amazon MHP*
         Profile Apt*
         Terrace MHP **

    Rumney 
         Hawkenson Ent.

    Sunapee
         Meadowbrook at Sun.*

    Sutton
         Central School**

    Stratford
         N. Stratford MHP 

    Swanzey
         California Brook Est.

    Tamworth
         Chocrua Woods
         ChocoruaMeadows (Tre)
         Community School
         Pine Tree Power Ind.
         Scandia Est MHP *
         State Police*

    Temple
         Elementary School*

    Thornton
         Falls at Mills Brook
         Mtn River Condo West*
         Star Ridge
         White Mtn. Condo
         White Mt Resort/Gateway
         Waterville Acres*

    Tuftonboro 
         Central School**
          North Country Village

    Waterville Valley
         Waterville Val. Mun** 

    Weare
         Hoit Mills
         Middle School

    Webster
         Elementary School**
         Pillsbury Lake Dist*

    Wentworth
         Wentworth Elem. Sch.

    Westmoreland
         Elementary School*
         Wilkes Const*

    Whitefield
         Whitefield Precinct*

    Wilton
         PVA-EPVA*

    Wolfeboro
         Center of Hope Manuf.
         Birchhill MHP**
         Wentworth Acres



Now, please tell me how this can be such a terrible poison when it is present in almost ALL water supplies?

328 posted on 11/20/2002 8:45:20 AM PST by TomB
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 327 | View Replies ]


To: TomB
OK, lets have a contest. He who posts the most number of scientists that agree with their side wins. OK?

I doubt you'd find ONE reputable scientist that agrees with you. I'm sure you might find some on the ADA payroll and some at the aluminum factories that might back you, but that is the ONLY support you would find.

In other words, NEUTRAL parties would NOT support your position, as MOST if not ALL medical researchers, biophysicists, microbiologists, and public health officials KNOW that fluoride is hazardous and totally unnecessary for bodily functions and mechanisms.


FL: And that is BECAUSE NaCl is a necessary NUTRIENT.

TomB: BUT IT'S A TOXIN!!! How can you let yourself consume it! How can something that is a toxin be good for you at the same time?

Boy you ARE dense. It is a NUTRIENT numnuts. Are you too lazy to click on the link I provided that explains that is is ESSENTIAL for vital body functions? Go back to the link I posted and READ IT. Here, I'll provide AGAIN in case you are too LAZY to go back and find the link in the previous post.

Ions: The Body's Electrical Energy Source


TomB: Fluoride have been proven for over 50 years to be useful in preventing decay. That make is a valuable nutrient.

It's been PROVEN that is is USELESS and actually CAUSES motling of the teeth. It also makes teeth more brittle leading to cracked teeth. In fact, there IS no direct correlation between the application of fluoride and fewer cavities. It IS a fact that the frequency of cavities went down PRIOR to the introduction of fluoride into water systems. And it IS a fact that the body does NOT use fluorine in ANY cell function or process. It IS simply a toxin.


FL: Fluorine has NO nutritional value, and IS simply a toxin. It is NOT excreted, and due to its highly reactive nature, bonds with calcium in our bodies.

TomB: THAT IS A COMPLETE AND TOTAL LIE. Fluoride is constantly excreted in urine.

Although I DID say flourine rather than fluoride, it IS true that flourides are excreted. In fact, flourine ions are as well. I was simply working off the top of my head and was assuming FLOURINE IONS were NOT excreted. But I'll admit I'm wrong when I'm wrong. So yes, both fluorides and fluorine ions are excreted. In fact, here's a link to that very information..

FLUORINE AND FLUORIDES

So yes, I made a mistake. HOWEVER, in relation to some of YOUR statements, which ARE bald faced LIES, it is quite an innocent oversight.

If you ARE seriously interested in the process of fluoride excretion, as well as the health effects of ingested fluoride, why don't you read up on the subject. I'll give you a link in case you are interested..

Health Effects of Ingested Fluoride


See the bald-faced lie above.

Again, you are a charlatan and a huckster.


TomB: As I pointed out, there is no such thing as "calcium fluoride in water". It dissociates into Ca and Fl. You are implying that there is some kind of difference between natural fluoride and added fluoride.

From Flouride Fact Sheet:

The fluoride naturally found in water is calcium fluoride (CaF2 ) as fluorine has a strong affinity to calcium. When water is artificially fluoridated sodium fluoride (NaF), sodium silicofluoride or hydrofluosilic acid is added. Because calcium bonds relatively strongly with the fluoride ion, the fluoride ions are much less available than in the artificially-produced fluoride. The artificial compounds are more toxic because they are more soluble in water and the fluoride dissociates from the compound. In the body this fluoride becomes the "most exclusive bone seeking element, owing to its affinity for calcium phosphate". Studies have shown that the lethal dose of NaF is approximately 50 times smaller than that of CaF2 (naturally-occurring fluoride).1

So AGAIN you prove your ignorance. That or you are simply LYING.


TomB: It is in practically ALL water supplies, and it is at or over the recommened limits in around 30-40% of the country.

FL: Why don't you try posting some link to that. IF that is true, it is most likely BECAUSE of fluoridation.

TomB: You are lying again. Fluoride is a naturally occurring element, the 13th most common. And it is commonly found at levels HIGHER than the adjusted levels in treated water.

There you go with YOUR lies again. For ONE, your link doesn't work, so I can't even verify if the figures you listed in your chart are in fact related to NATURALLY occuring fluoride.

Secondly, NATURAL fluoride in the form of calcium fluoride is NOT as soluable as the artificial fluorides that they use to fluoridate water supplies. As such, the EPA limit for NATURALLY OCCURING fluoride is 4.0 mg/L.

From the list you provide, we can't see any level over 2.0 mg/L, as they simply don't list the value if the concentration IS over 2.0 mg/L.

From The Fluoride Debate

Under the Safe Drinking Water Act, the EPA has established drinking water standards for a number of substances, including fluoride, in order to protect the public's health. There are several areas in the United States where the ground water contains higher than optimal levels of naturally occurring fluoride. Therefore, federal regulations were established to require that naturally occurring fluoride levels in a community water supply not exceed a concentration of 4.0 mg/L.202 Under the Safe Drinking Water Act, this upper limit is the Maximum Contaminant Level (MCL) for fluoride. Under the MCL standard, if the naturally occurring level of fluoride in a public water supply exceeds the MCL (4.0 mg/L for fluoride), the water supplier is required to lower the level of fluoride below the MCL. This process is called defluoridation.

And FINALLY, you pick an area that DOES have naturally occuring fluoride in water. You did NOT supply ANY evidence that 30-40% of the nation's water supplies exceed the limit, you did NOT show this to be true in naturally occuring cases, and you did NOT show that fluoridation is NOT the culprit if your figures are correct.

In fact, you are being purposely misleading and deceptive.


TomB: Now, please tell me how this can be such a terrible poison when it is present in almost ALL water supplies?

As already stated, naturally occuring fluoride does NOT dissolve as readily as artifical fluorides, and it is 50 times less toxic. It is also EXCRETED more readily as it IS less soluable.

329 posted on 11/20/2002 10:47:24 AM PST by FormerLurker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 328 | View Replies ]

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