Replies

OK, lets have a contest. He who posts the most number of scientists that agree with their side wins. OK?

I doubt you'd find ONE reputable scientist that agrees with you. I'm sure you might find some on the ADA payroll and some at the aluminum factories that might back you, but that is the ONLY support you would find.

In other words, NEUTRAL parties would NOT support your position, as MOST if not ALL medical researchers, biophysicists, microbiologists, and public health officials KNOW that fluoride is hazardous and totally unnecessary for bodily functions and mechanisms.

FL: And that is BECAUSE NaCl is a necessary NUTRIENT.

TomB: BUT IT'S A TOXIN!!! How can you let yourself consume it! How can something that is a toxin be good for you at the same time?

Boy you ARE dense. It is a NUTRIENT numnuts. Are you too lazy to click on the link I provided that explains that is is ESSENTIAL for vital body functions? Go back to the link I posted and READ IT. Here, I'll provide AGAIN in case you are too LAZY to go back and find the link in the previous post.

Ions: The Body's Electrical Energy Source

TomB: Fluoride have been proven for over 50 years to be useful in preventing decay. That make is a valuable nutrient.

It's been PROVEN that is is USELESS and actually CAUSES motling of the teeth. It also makes teeth more brittle leading to cracked teeth. In fact, there IS no direct correlation between the application of fluoride and fewer cavities. It IS a fact that the frequency of cavities went down PRIOR to the introduction of fluoride into water systems. And it IS a fact that the body does NOT use fluorine in ANY cell function or process. It IS simply a toxin.

FL: Fluorine has NO nutritional value, and IS simply a toxin. It is NOT excreted, and due to its highly reactive nature, bonds with calcium in our bodies.

TomB: THAT IS A COMPLETE AND TOTAL LIE. Fluoride is constantly excreted in urine.

Although I DID say flourine rather than fluoride, it IS true that flourides are excreted. In fact, flourine ions are as well. I was simply working off the top of my head and was assuming FLOURINE IONS were NOT excreted. But I'll admit I'm wrong when I'm wrong. So yes, both fluorides and fluorine ions are excreted. In fact, here's a link to that very information..

FLUORINE AND FLUORIDES

So yes, I made a mistake. HOWEVER, in relation to some of YOUR statements, which ARE bald faced LIES, it is quite an innocent oversight.

If you ARE seriously interested in the process of fluoride excretion, as well as the health effects of ingested fluoride, why don't you read up on the subject. I'll give you a link in case you are interested..

Health Effects of Ingested Fluoride

See the bald-faced lie above.

Again, you are a charlatan and a huckster.

TomB: As I pointed out, there is no such thing as "calcium fluoride in water". It dissociates into Ca and Fl. You are implying that there is some kind of difference between natural fluoride and added fluoride.

From Flouride Fact Sheet:

The fluoride naturally found in water is calcium fluoride (CaF2 ) as fluorine has a strong affinity to calcium. When water is artificially fluoridated sodium fluoride (NaF), sodium silicofluoride or hydrofluosilic acid is added. Because calcium bonds relatively strongly with the fluoride ion, the fluoride ions are much less available than in the artificially-produced fluoride. The artificial compounds are more toxic because they are more soluble in water and the fluoride dissociates from the compound. In the body this fluoride becomes the "most exclusive bone seeking element, owing to its affinity for calcium phosphate". Studies have shown that the lethal dose of NaF is approximately 50 times smaller than that of CaF2 (naturally-occurring fluoride).1

So AGAIN you prove your ignorance. That or you are simply LYING.

TomB: It is in practically ALL water supplies, and it is at or over the recommened limits in around 30-40% of the country.

FL: Why don't you try posting some link to that. IF that is true, it is most likely BECAUSE of fluoridation.

TomB: You are lying again. Fluoride is a naturally occurring element, the 13th most common. And it is commonly found at levels HIGHER than the adjusted levels in treated water.

There you go with YOUR lies again. For ONE, your link doesn't work, so I can't even verify if the figures you listed in your chart are in fact related to NATURALLY occuring fluoride.

Secondly, NATURAL fluoride in the form of calcium fluoride is NOT as soluable as the artificial fluorides that they use to fluoridate water supplies. As such, the EPA limit for NATURALLY OCCURING fluoride is 4.0 mg/L.

From the list you provide, we can't see any level over 2.0 mg/L, as they simply don't list the value if the concentration IS over 2.0 mg/L.

From The Fluoride Debate

Under the Safe Drinking Water Act, the EPA has established drinking water standards for a number of substances, including fluoride, in order to protect the public's health. There are several areas in the United States where the ground water contains higher than optimal levels of naturally occurring fluoride. Therefore, federal regulations were established to require that naturally occurring fluoride levels in a community water supply not exceed a concentration of 4.0 mg/L.202 Under the Safe Drinking Water Act, this upper limit is the Maximum Contaminant Level (MCL) for fluoride. Under the MCL standard, if the naturally occurring level of fluoride in a public water supply exceeds the MCL (4.0 mg/L for fluoride), the water supplier is required to lower the level of fluoride below the MCL. This process is called defluoridation.

And FINALLY, you pick an area that DOES have naturally occuring fluoride in water. You did NOT supply ANY evidence that 30-40% of the nation's water supplies exceed the limit, you did NOT show this to be true in naturally occuring cases, and you did NOT show that fluoridation is NOT the culprit if your figures are correct.

In fact, you are being purposely misleading and deceptive.

TomB: Now, please tell me how this can be such a terrible poison when it is present in almost ALL water supplies?

As already stated, naturally occuring fluoride does NOT dissolve as readily as artifical fluorides, and it is 50 times less toxic. It is also EXCRETED more readily as it IS less soluable.

Your whole argument seems to be based on some cut-and-paste jobs from your typical anitfluoride sites:

The fluoride naturally found in water is calcium fluoride (CaF2 ) as fluorine has a strong affinity to calcium. When water is artificially fluoridated sodium fluoride (NaF), sodium silicofluoride or hydrofluosilic acid is added. Because calcium bonds relatively strongly with the fluoride ion, the fluoride ions are much less available than in the artificially-produced fluoride. The artificial compounds are more toxic because they are more soluble in water and the fluoride dissociates from the compound. In the body this fluoride becomes the "most exclusive bone seeking element, owing to its affinity for calcium phosphate". Studies have shown that the lethal dose of NaF is approximately 50 times smaller than that of CaF2 (naturally-occurring fluoride).1

This sounds great to someone who doesn't know chemistry, but it is absolute bunk.

When you put a chemical into water, it dissociates into its constituent ions, fine, we argee with that.

Depending on what affinity the cation has for the anion, the amounts of free ions will reach a certain concentration in the water. So what we have here is that, in one case we add compunds to the water to bring the flouride ion concentration to the proper level (.8 to 1 ppm). In natural conditions, we have ground water seeping through rocks and dissolving them on the way to the aquifer. In that case we have those fluoride bearing rocks giving off their fluoride ions, eventually reaching a concentration dependent upon the compounds in the rock.

But once the fluoride ion gets into the water, it doesn't matter where it came from. The level of fluoride is the measure of the FREE FLUORIDE IONS, not the fluoride still held in compound. All the differences in affinity means is that you need to add more of one compound to get a certain concentration than another.

I doubt you'd find ONE reputable scientist that agrees with you.

Linus Pauling.

It is a NUTRIENT numnuts.

So chlorine isn't dangerous in large amounts?

IOW, things can't be both good for you in small amounts and bad for you in large amounts?

And FINALLY, you pick an area that DOES have naturally occuring fluoride in water.

Yes. That is my entire point. There are areas in the country that have high levels of flouride, and always have. Yet you can't show increased rates of disease in those areas.

BTW, here is a good link to the New Hampshire DES. It states specifically that the fluoride is naturally occurring.

As already stated, naturally occuring fluoride does NOT dissolve as readily as artifical fluorides, and it is 50 times less toxic. It is also EXCRETED more readily as it IS less soluable.

You are really missing the boat here. Once dissolved in water, there is NO DIFFERENCE between fluoride ions taken from different compounds. None.

And I apologize for calling you a liar. You probably aren't lying, just very, very confused.