'A supersnoop's dream'

Washington Times ^ | 11/15/2002 | Audrey Hudson

[TomServo]

Language tucked inside the Homeland Security bill will allow the federal government to track the e-mail, Internet use, travel, credit-card purchases, phone and bank records of foreigners and U.S. citizens in its hunt for terrorists.

In what one critic has called "a supersnoop's dream," the Defense Department's Total Information Awareness program would be authorized to collect every type of available public and private data in what the Pentagon describes as one "centralized grand database."

[TomServo]

Ping...

[HEY4QDEMS]

Language tucked inside the Homeland Security bill will allow the federal government to track the e-mail, Internet use, travel, credit-card purchases, phone and bank records of foreigners and U.S. citizens in its hunt for terrorists.

They keep saying this, but so far, nobody in Washington has not been able to cite any specific text that allows for this.(Many Pols have been chalanged to articulate this claim, where still waiting)

Forth Amendment violations are not to be taken lightly and the public at large will not accept such violations and niether will the SCOTUS.

[joesnuffy]

Hillary is salivating...those FBI records were nothing compared to what she could do with this...
A dictators dream come true.....

[Blood of Tyrants]

Goodbye 4th Amendment. You were one of my favorites.

[TomServo]

i>Goodbye 4th Amendment. You were one of my favorites.

Yeah - good thing we have the 2nd - for now.

[freeeee]

these systems can capture a lot of data at different levels without oversight, judicial review, public reporting or congressional investigations.

That's funny, I thought the entire structure of our government was based on checks and balances.

Wait! I got it. Checks and balances were created to prevent abuses. Since we all know everyone in government is an angel and not human, abuses simply can't happen anymore so checks and balances no longer needed.

Look! Here's one of our angels right now!!

[dirtboy]

In what one critic has called "a supersnoop's dream," the Defense Department's Total Information Awareness program would be authorized to collect every type of available public and private data in what the Pentagon describes as one "centralized grand database."

Once again, I am not seeing this. I have seen nothing in the bill the provides the actual authorization to gather this information - instead, what I have seen is a proposal to develop the technology for such a system.

[Governor]

A program called CHEVRON runing in Canada does that now. They "give" the U.S. any info requested. It also helps that the FEDS fund the entire program right up to the satellites and computers used. But, we do the same thing on Canadians........So noone is breaking his hiomeland's privacy laws.

[m1911]

I can't find it. THOMAS has the bill (HR 5710), but I can't find anything about searching all our e-mail, credit card transactions, etc.

[m1911]

In which section do you see that proposal, I'm not seeing it.

[dirtboy]

I see it implied in section 307 (only relevant excerpts included):

SEC. 307. HOMELAND SECURITY ADVANCED RESEARCH PROJECTS AGENCY. 8

(2) DIRECTOR.—HSARPA shall be headed by a Director, who shall be appointed by the Secretary. The Director shall report to the Under Secretary.

(3) RESPONSIBILITIES.—The Director shall ad- minister the Fund to award competitive, merit-re-viewed grants, cooperative agreements or contracts to public or private entities, including businesses, federally funded research and development centers, and universities. The Director shall administer the Fund to— (B) advance the development, testing and evaluation, and deployment of critical homeland security technologies; and

(C) accelerate the prototyping and deploy- ment of technologies that would address home- land security vulnerabilities.

H.L.C.

(2) AUTHORIZATION OF APPROPRIATIONS.— There are authorized to be appropriated $500,000,000 to the Fund for fiscal year 2003 and such sums as may be necessary thereafter.

I figure they could do some research for DARPA-type technology out of this budget. I also recall seeing some other mention of research funding, but can't find it at the moment.

[dirtboy]

I can't find it. THOMAS has the bill (HR 5710), but I can't find anything about searching all our e-mail, credit card transactions, etc.

I think that in one of the companion bills to H.R. 5710, perhaps H.R. 3482 (although I haven't seen this verbiage in there yet, either), there is a provision to allow for warrantless searches of financial records. However, IMO Safire took that language, combined it with the DARPA concept model and made the giant leap that H.R. 5710 authorized gathering of this information - when it simply does not. This is some really sloppy journalism on the part of Safire and now the Washington Times. For cryin' out loud, there probably is a website about a planned manned mission to Mars. Doesn't mean that it's gonna happen anytime soon.

[m1911]

OK, we're on the same page. I read Sec 307 about ten times because it was the only place that even seemed remotely like what this article, and a couple others, are worried about. This kind of thing drives me crazy because all the "crying wolf" is going to get us all lazy and miss something really bad coming through.

[m1911]

Of course, I'm not to thrilled about dropping half a billion dollars down some University research grant hole to write the next great IP sniffer.

[dirtboy]

I read Sec 307 about ten times because it was the only place that even seemed remotely like what this article, and a couple others, are worried about.

Yeah, I think Safire is blowing smoke - even the DARPA site seems to make it clear that the database they envision is years off. So at this point I think it's more of an R&D effort, and you can do quite a bit of that with half a billion bucks.

Of course, I'm not to thrilled about dropping half a billion dollars down some University research grant hole to write the next great IP sniffer.

LOL. They should invest a few million dollars, create an interagency hotline organization, and allow any agent in the FBI, CIA, INS or other organization to phone terrorism tips or even guesses (such as it's strange for all these Middle Eastern men to be in flight school), thereby bypassing the bureaucracy that tries to filter and squelch such information. The agents manning the hotline and processing the information should be a combination of hard-nosed homicide detectives from city police forces, former CIA field officers, former congressional staffers, former prosecutors - folks used to working with information in an analytical, timely basis - and this agency should have the power to kick the ass of anyone below them who gets in their way.

[dirtboy]

This kind of thing drives me crazy because all the "crying wolf" is going to get us all lazy and miss something really bad coming through.

Agreed. Given historical precedent, I am sure there are at least a couple of real stinkers buried in this bill. I'm half-tempted to print out the entire mess on paper and read it this weekend, since it's supposed to rain anyway.

[glc1173@aol.com]

Is this what your grandpa fought for in WWII?

Did our grandpas fight in WWII and our fathers in Nam to give us an American East Germany?

[TomServo]

I'm half-tempted to print out the entire mess on paper and read it this weekend, since it's supposed to rain anyway.

I'm ahead of you on that one. ;-)

[dirtboy]

I'm ahead of you on that one. ;-)

Glad to see there's more than one masochist around this joint...