H-1B Study (All you US Citizen IT Workers are TOAST!)

U.S. House Judiciary Committee Testimony ^ | September 10, 2002 | Dr. Norman Matloff

[dark_lord]

Debunking the Myth of a Desperate Software Labor Shortage

Due to an extensive public relations campaign orchestrated by an industry trade organization, the Information Technology Association of America (ITAA), a rash of newspaper articles have been appearing since early 1997, claiming desperate labor shortages in the information-technology field. Frantic employers complain that they cannot fill many open positions for computer programmers.

Yet readers of the articles proclaiming a shortage would be perplexed if they also knew that Microsoft only hires 2% of its applicants for software positions, and that this rate is typical in the industry. Software employers, large or small, across the nation, concede that they receive huge numbers of re'sume's but reject most of them without even an interview. One does not have to be a ``techie'' to see the contradiction here. A 2% hiring rate might be unremarkable in other fields, but not in one in which there is supposed to be a ``desperate'' labor shortage. If employers were that desperate, they would certainly not be hiring just a minuscule fraction of their job applicants.

Here is a table showing the actual number of job applicants hired for a variety of companies:

American Management Systems	2%
Broderbund Software	1%
Cisco	5%
Cohesive	2%
Datascan	5%
Deltanet	4%
ECbridges	2%
Flashpoint Technology	2 to 5%
R.D. Raab	1%
H.L. Yoh	4%
Inktomi	less than 5%
Microsoft	2%
Net Perceptions	2%
New England firm	1%
Qualcomm	4.5%
Radiant Systems	under 1%
Red Hat Linux	under 1%
Tangis	under 1%

Table 1: Percent of software applicants hired

In other words, there is no shortage of ``bodies,'' i.e. there is no shortage of experienced computer programmers. The problem is that employers are not willing to hire them. Employers are only willing to hire from three narrow categories of programmers:
* New or recent (within a few years of graduation) college graduates, who have cheaper salaries. Note, though, that even among new computer science graduates, fewer than half are hired as programmers.
* Foreign nationals on work visas, who have cheaper salaries.
* A relatively small number of experiencedprogrammers who have background in certain highly-specialized software technologies.

Dr. Matloff says: "Hiring managers have often complained to me that their firm's Human Resources Dept. screens out resume's of applicants who the managers feel qualified. HR apparently decides to screen out the applicants who are too expensive or too old - and then complains that there is a ``shortage'' of applicants...There does seem to be coordination among the HR departments of the various firms. The HR departments of the major firms in Silicon Valley hold monthly meetings, at which the firms exchange information with each other on policy, salaries and so on. (Personal communication from Paul Donnelly, IEEE-USA, June 30, 2000.)...All the firms hire an extremely low percentage of their programming applicants, due to the fact that all the firms overstate job requirements...Almost all firms aim for applicants having three to seven years (or two to eight) of experience."

He says: "It seems safe to say that experience may not be the most valued commodity, according to a survey of 200 IT managers nationwide conducted by InformationWeek Research in May. Though age wasn't specified in the question, only 2% of the managers said they would most likely hire a worker with 10 or more years' experience. Almost half-46%-preferred to hire a worker with four to 10 years' experience, while 26% said they would hire a worker with less than three years' experience, and another 26% wanted an entry-level worker or recent college graduate."

[mdmathis6]

There is only one thing that could be done that will catch the attention of these companies and politicians: Do with-out the products these companies make for a while and boycott them. Not just boycott, but those so affected by the machinations of these firms must organize to educate and protest. Further-more, the use of these H1B visa's raises and interesting discrimination question, with white males beibg discriminated against in favor of of other races from other countries, this is almost like quota's thru the back door. I would like to see any politician, Democrat or Republican press for a bill, banning discrimination against free born American citizens(white,black,Hispanic, ect) in terms of job Hiring. Comments any-one?

[FormerLurker]

Ahh I see, so resurrecting an unrelated arguement was how you argued that I was wrong when I stated a simple fact that the received resume/application to actual hired people ratio is ALWAYS rather severe regardless of industry.

When highly qualified individuals send out hundreds of resumes without one interview in response, I HIGHLY doubt any claims that there are a high degree of unqualified applicants. And when who has utilized faulty logic and reasoning on frequent occasions yet claims to be an engineer makes the assertion that there are indeed a huge number of unqualified applicants applying for engineering positions, I call that assertion into question.

You demonstrated DOLS data handling proecdures were bad at least twice.

Once when you quoted Zazona as saying the data was input straight from OCR, anybody that's actually worked with OCR scanning software knows that stuff isn't good for squat.

Well, I haven't, and I doubt that your allegation that it "isn't good for sqaut" is accurate. Perhaps there ARE some problems related to that particular system, but I question the characterization that it is "good for squat".

All that zazona had said on the matter is as follows;

From LCA Database FAQ:

Errors can happen at the DOL when LCAs are scanned into the digital format. They use an OCR that can misinterpret data items.

They are honest enough to describe all known possible data errors. They state that errors can happen. It does not indicate or translate to "the DOL database sucks". There is usually ALWAYS some form of data errors in large databases containing any volume of data. It is necessary to understand those errors and correct them if possible. If it is not possible to correct them, ways are found to compensate or allow for those errors.

So no, I did NOT say indicate that the DOL data "sucked" in this instance, nor did zazona state it either.

And once when you showed that the DOL database has 4 company names associated with one EIN, you might not have realized that was evidence of horrible data handling, but your ignorance isn't my fault

For one, an abbreviation of LTD to LIMITED does not a name change make. For two, DCM DATA SYSTEMS is a subsidary of DCM TECHNOLOGIES. And for three, DCM ASIC TECHNOLOGIES is ALSO a subsidary of DCM TECHNOLOGIES. DCM GROUP doesn't appear to be related to DCM Technologies, and has it's own EIN. DCM ASIC TECHNOLOGIES and DCM TECHNOLOGIES both have the same EIN, where DCM DATA SYSTEMS has its own. Your assertion that all four companies use the same EIN is false.

I hadn't had the time to look into that, as I had correctly assumed that you were again grasping for straws. You have just proven that you do little if any research before you utilize that which you know little about as PROOF of your false theories and misconceptions. You again show little analytical process or thought in your assertions, and expect me to cave into your inane blather for whatever reason. How pathetic.

If there IS any issue with the way DCM filled out their applications in relation to the EIN field, why don't you give them a call and ask them why they did it that way.....

You demonstrated DOLS data handling proecdures were bad at least twice.

I've just demonstrated that the above statement is not only patently false, I've shown that it is either purposely misleading or the result of extremely sloppy research resulting in erroneous conclusions.

Because you were lieing.

Ah, now the REAL discostu shows his colors. Why don't you take the time to spell check your diatribes before you post...

The postings clearly show your first excuse for the duplicates was that I wasn't using the querieing tool correctly, when confronted with the posting chain and exact quotes you said that you meant something else entirely when it's patently impossible for the posts to mean what anything other than the classic developer excuse of "user error". That's lieing.

And again you falsely accuse me of lying. That is why I took the time and the bandwidth in the other thread to document exactly what had transpired. Here's a little something to refresh your memory as to exactly WHO is the liar here...

Documented Evidence of Shill Tactics

The more you post discostu, the more you prove MY theory.

[discostu]

Way to ignore the e-mail from DL.

[discostu]

Alright folks let's get this thread back here. There's some good stuff on it. FL and I have agreed to ignore the hatchet since we can't seem to bury it. Oh and he was the bigger man and sought peace first.

now here's a question to hopefully get us back on track: Why IT? An indisputable section of the stats shows the H1B focus is in the tech/ software trade, why? Tech isn't an unskilled field where you can grab any-old anybody off the banana boat and toss them in the job (I'm sure Belefonte will classify that as a racist remark, unless the banana boat in question is filled with Republicans), these people are seeking training which isn't cheap or easy. Is this a supply side problem? What to really do about it? Many have said if we closed the H1B loop the work would just get sent overseas, I tend to agree given that two of the three companies I've been had multiple sites and we shared workload this stuff is pretty ripe for overseas shipment.

[FlyingA]

BINGO.

Hey Mdmathis6, I believe you hit the nail on the Head. Along with allot of the Research by others provided in threads previous and Programmers Guild etc....

Your suggestion is what we need, Perhaps with Help from the Freeper Community somehow. No not a Cruise but......

[FlyingA]

Ok you Guys who wants to be the Whip...

LOL

[Snerfling]

I think if you spent 20 years building a career...

That means we're about the same age. Don't tell me that no one told you while you were studying EE/CS in 1982 that the average career lifespan of an engineer was around 15 years?

Why do you think the other math crowd was slugging it through incredibly boring accounting/economics subjects? Because the word then, as it is today, is that business majors don't pay off until the second part of one's career.

While you jumped into a high paying job right out of college, I slaved for years with no thanks and little more money, all the while biding my time. Go cry somewhere else.

[FlyingA]

Well Snerfling, any thoughts on where we all need to go...
Cry somewhere else?

[FormerLurker]

Oh and he was the bigger man and sought peace first.

You didn't have to say that, but thank you for doing so.

Now let's not get all mushy.. (: 0)

[discostu]

To steal a line from Clint Eastwood (I'm such a slave to pop culture): doesn't mean I'm gonna be swapping spit with you in the shower.

So what do we do? Some immigrant labor is a good thing, you get different perspectives, too much (which we have on the coasts, not so much in the heartland but it could spread) is obviously bad. How do we get the right mix? How do we keep from having the industry sent overseas? Or is it time to read the handwriting on the wall, decide the dot-com meltdown was the beginning of the end and go find real work (I always wanted to be a librarian after I got sick of software, that's where I student aided and it was a lot of fun)?

[FormerLurker]

To steal a line from Clint Eastwood (I'm such a slave to pop culture): doesn't mean I'm gonna be swapping spit with you in the shower.

Now THAT would be a very unpleasant picture.. Yuck!

So what do we do? Some immigrant labor is a good thing, you get different perspectives, too much (which we have on the coasts, not so much in the heartland but it could spread) is obviously bad. How do we get the right mix?

I'd say that as far as immigrant farm labor, that's always been there and is relied upon to harvest crops, then that's a necessesity.

How do we keep from having the industry sent overseas?

I'd say that it will prove itself to be a faulty process. I've heard many horror stories about the quality of work performed offshore. If it doesn't resolve itself, then perhaps restrictions will need to be put in place in order to stop the flow of work out of the country. I'm not quite sure as to the mechanics of the restrictions, but one idea would be to remove any tax deduction for the costs of any work performed outside of this country. So if it costs $500,000 to get something done offshore, then that amount would show as income even if it went towards development.

Or is it time to read the handwriting on the wall, decide the dot-com meltdown was the beginning of the end and go find real work (I always wanted to be a librarian after I got sick of software, that's where I student aided and it was a lot of fun)?

The "dot-com" meltdown was an abberation. Software development has been a profession for decades. Such things as telecommuncications (phone network, data communications), satellite weather systems, defense systems, medical instrumentation, lab systems, manufacturing systems, entertainment systems and devices, network management tools, home electronics, business systems and applications, emergency response systems, software development tools, operating systems, and of course, home computer software, are going to stay around for a long time to come.

It is here where we have to draw the line. Do we allow foreign workers to come to this country and work in those fields when there is an overabundance of Americans with the education and background to work in those fields that are out of work and can't find a job?

[discostu]

Part of the dot-com meltdown was an aberation, but part was displaying the sick underbelly of the industry. We always said we'd do all this great stuff for society, and it hasn't happened (remember the promise of the paperless office, and what's happened to paper consumption since then), dot-coms were the ultimate "something great is going to happen" and it didn't. With hardware prices dropping it's coming time for the industry to put up or shut up and I'm not sure we've got anything to put up.

And of course all that contributes to the H1B issue. If we didn't have so many out of work geeks running around the same part of the country that's done the most importing of labor the thing is a non-starter. I do think that controlling the dot-com bubble would have helped more people than controlling the H1Bs.

Of course there is always decentralization, the problem areas are in the big tech hubs. Not that the picture is glorious out here in the hinterlands, but the H1B numbers are much lower (you still got that state by state breakdown link? I really did think that was a good link showed where the problem was acute and where there really wasn't one) so the competition's not as ugly. I always thought the way tech centralized in these locations (none of which I was willing to live in) sucked anyway.

I like the tax break idea, though the money shouldn't count as income (that's just rude, and doesn't make sense from an accounting perspective) but some expenses are not tax deductable as cost of goods sold and others are, and it doesn't have to make sense (it already doesn't). Overseas costs could just be considered not CGS, though still expenses.

[blueriver]

BTW blueriver, I forgot to thank you for that link. Thank you kind sir...

You are vere welcome, glad to help a fellow comrade. By the way I never refer to myself as a "sir" since I am a female.

[Kay Ludlow]

I am an IT manager and have worked with plenty of H-1B coders (primarily Indians and Chinese). They are fine people and work hard.

As more of an "end user", I think it's great that they make good coders... they generally aren't too good on the HelpDesk though. It's difficult to get them to understand what you need help with, then it's hard to understand their solution!

[FormerLurker]

I like the tax break idea, though the money shouldn't count as income (that's just rude, and doesn't make sense from an accounting perspective)

What I meant was that instead of them substracting the development costs from their revenue, whatever it costs them for the overseas development costs and expenses would remain taxable income.

[FormerLurker]

By the way I never refer to myself as a "sir" since I am a female.

Oops. I'll change that to thank you kind lady. :)

[discostu]

I'm ziggy, remember I spent far too much time around CPAs, words that I used to misuse constantly now get me all twitchy. Those people mess you up. The "proper phrase" (assuming you don't want me breaking out in hives regularly) is "non-deductable expense", which still deducts from revenue for the purposes of profit and loss statements but does not deduct from revenue for tax burden calculations (thanks to taxes there are multiple definitions of every accounting word).

Blech I feel all dirty now.

[FormerLurker]

Part of the dot-com meltdown was an aberation, but part was displaying the sick underbelly of the industry.

Although there was a major ramp up of telecommunications equipment and services in anticipation of high internet useage and services, I think the "dot-com" bubble was simply a bump in the road. It had to do with poor market analysis and overly ambitious expectations, where those making the decisions had thought everyone would want to get online and buy everything under the sun.

However, there are STILL many people who would use the Internet if they could afford to keep their service active. Many people flock to chat rooms, download music, check out movies and all sorts of things. Streaming video is a popular feature on many sites, and there are all sorts of games that people like to play online.

So there IS a demand for Internet sercices, and there is of course a need for sufficient bandwidth in order to handle the load.

It appears that the reason the telecomm companies took a nose dive is simply that investors had a severe case of jitters when they saw these "dot-com" companies tank. It is an artificial artifact brought upon by lack of confidence in the industry rather than a lack of demand for those products and services.

We always said we'd do all this great stuff for society, and it hasn't happened (remember the promise of the paperless office, and what's happened to paper consumption since then)

Well, we did do a lot of great stuff for society. Many of those things are behind the scenes and transparent, but look at point of sale systems, home entertainment, cell phones, and the vast array of home business software available today. Offices use PC's, not typewriters, and many documents are stored on file servers instead of filing cabinets. There are many things taken for granted that is a direct result of a team of software engineers developing the software that makes those things possible.

, dot-coms were the ultimate "something great is going to happen" and it didn't.

It was more of a thrust into an unknown that was obviously premature and overly ambitious.

With hardware prices dropping it's coming time for the industry to put up or shut up and I'm not sure we've got anything to put up.

I'd say the next great thing to come along will be fully integrated television, phone, and data services such as is currently available in the form of broadband. What will be different is that instead of having separate devices, a television will also serve as a monitor, and the sound system will also be the phone. There will be an ability to rent whatever movie desired though the keyboard interface, and video games will take on an entire new dimension. I assume that is the reason why Microsoft and NBC merged, so as to be the first to provide such integrated services...

The thing is, will it be Americans or foreigners that design and develop such systems and services?

[RKV]

Yeah, you have to train your ears to pick up certain inflections. The best educated ones get it together after a year or so. I had one Indian guy who worked for me who never could slow down, though. I guess the Indian state where he was from you talked fast or didn't talk. You are correct about the help desk, too.

[Darth Hillary]

As for your "quiz" on my work experience, I'll give you the same answer I give others: no.

That explains your rants, you have NO work experience!

FormerLurker is very accurate in his observations. The only good thing I see in these scams is that once the techincal bases in this country have been completly outsourced - the Lawyers that made it all happen won't be needed any more, and they will be discarded as well.