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National sales tax gains momentum
WorldNetDaily.com ^ | Wednesday, November 13, 2002 | By Jon Dougherty

Posted on 11/12/2002 11:46:28 PM PST by JohnHuang2

Lawmakers and experts who support fundamental tax reform are eyeing a consumption-tax plan being worked out by the Bush administration that they believe if implemented would make the U.S. tax code much simpler to follow and be a boon to economic growth.

The administration's plan, first reported by the Washington Post last month, calls for shifting the tax system away from taxing income and targeting consumption instead. The paper reported that administration tax policy wonks within the Treasury Department are still working out the details, and that their progress has largely been kept under wraps.

Officially, White House tax-policy experts have spent the past year working on reform options to present to the president, but "economists and tax lobbyists close to the effort believe that Treasury Secretary Paul H. O'Neill is serious about elevating tax reform on Washington's agenda," said the Post.

Some experts and lawmakers have long complained that the government's system of taxation is painfully complex, difficult to administer, too costly and inefficient. The labyrinth of rules and regulations – mostly the work of a Congress seeking to curry favor with constituents and business interests – grows increasingly more convoluted by the year.

While it may not be a panacea for hard-core tax opponents, a consumption-based system is seen at least as a more equitable way of raising the money necessary to fund government functions, according to supporters.

"The Bush administration's plan to move toward a consumption-based tax is a winner on all fronts," says Chris Edwards, the libertarian CATO Institute's director of fiscal policy. "A consumption-based tax would be simpler, more efficient, pro-growth and fairer to taxpayers."

In a policy briefing, Edwards said a consumption tax would not only benefit consumers, but the businesses they patronize as well.

"On the business side, a consumption-based tax would scrap the complex depreciation system for immediate capital expenses. That reform would make U.S. businesses much more competitive in the world economy and create an investment boom that would drive Americans' wages higher," he said.

"On the individual side, a consumption-based tax could be arrived at by greatly expanding the Roth IRA and turning it into a Universal Savings Account. That would boost the savings rate and increase financial security for all Americans," Edwards added.

Consumer spending comprises two-thirds of the U.S. economy and was credited with helping curb a recession in 2001.

The consumption tax is also a staple of Americans for Fair Taxation, a tax-reform group that says taxing goods and services is simpler and fairer.

"Georgia is a prime example of the power of the frustrated taxpayer. In several congressional races and one Senate race, Fair Tax supporters and angry taxpayers worked to produce major upsets in support of pro-Fair Tax candidates. We witnessed this in other key races across the nation," says Genie Hayes, a spokeswoman for the group.

"We expect that these recent political victories will solidify the White House's decision to make tax replacement … into a key part of the president's agenda," she added.

Hayes said the Post report "confirms what we have been told by Washington insiders for the last two years – President Bush is listening to the American taxpayer."

"Any tax reform must result in a tax code that is simple, fair, voluntary, transparent, border neutral, industry neutral, strengthens Social Security and has manageable transition costs," said Rep. John Linder, R-Ga., in The Washington Times Oct. 28.

"These neutral principles would all be fulfilled by my proposal to eliminate all income and payroll taxes and replace them with a national retail sales tax," said Linder, author of the Fair Tax Act of 2001.

That's a good idea, says Rep. Ron Paul, R-Texas, as long as Americans don't end up with both an income tax and a consumption tax, as is the case in most of Europe.

"My worry," he told WorldNetDaily, "is that somewhere down the road, after we replace the income tax with a consumption tax, the American people will get saddled with an additional income tax."

Critics of a consumption-based sales tax say adding a levy at the point of sale would likely lead to less consumer spending, thereby worsening a weakened economy. Also, they say a national sales tax would have to be astronomical for the government to collect its current level of revenues.

William Gale, a senior fellow in economic studies at the Brookings Institute, a public-policy think tank, estimates that proposals to replace virtually all federal revenues with a 23 percent tax-inclusive national sales tax rate are based on assumptions that real government spending would decline by $480 billion per year, and that there would be no tax avoidance, evasion or political erosion of the tax base.

"Correction for these assumptions indicates that the required tax-inclusive rate would be over 50 percent," he writes in a 1999 policy paper.

But some economists say reducing income taxes means Americans will have more disposable income – and will spend it.

Indeed, the Commerce Department reported earlier this month that "robust" consumer spending contributed to third quarter economic growth at twice the rate of growth in the second quarter of this year. GDP climbed at a 3.1 percent annual rate in the three months from July to September, up from the preceding quarter's 1.3 percent rate.

"The largest contributors to the step-up were an acceleration in consumer spending – especially for motor vehicles – and a slowdown in imports," said the department.

Other critics support tax cuts as a way to reduce government spending.

"The tax shift is one of the great games of government. In the game, the government uses the prospect of lowering one tax in order to buy support for raising another," says Lew Rockwell, president of the Ludwig von Mises Institute, a libertarian economic think tank based in Auburn, Ala. "The proposal to move from an income tax to a consumption tax is a good example of the game."

Rockwell told WND that "the essential key to understanding the trick is to realize that the government wants money and is going to get it one way or another."

"Zigzagging from one method to another does not change the reality, but it can fool the gullible. And it can raise a lot of money from affected groups during the transition period," he said.

Fundamentally, Paul agrees. He also believes that for Americans to achieve real tax reform, the government has to become more frugal.

"I think if we waved a wand today and had a sales tax implemented and the income tax removed, we really don't solve a lot of our problems because we still have the (government) spending side to deal with," he said.

Other experts say that millions of Americans are paying more than their fair share of taxes under the current system.

"The total tax burden on Americans is – and will remain – at near-record levels," says an assessment by the Heritage Foundation, a public-policy think tank in Washington, D.C. "Marginal tax rates are far too high, savings and investment are still subject to discriminatory taxation, and needless complexity in the Internal Revenue Code foments corruption and adds a hidden compliance tax on productive activity."

Rockwell says the argument for a consumption-versus-income tax rests on a few key principles.

Supporters claim "the consumption tax is at least voluntary," he said, but "actually, it is just as coercive as any tax."

"Under the income tax, if I earn income and don't pay the tax, I can be fined and jailed," said Rockwell. "Under the consumption tax, if I consume a taxed item and don't pay the tax, I get fined and jailed.

"It's true that I can choose not to consume that item. Similarly under the income tax, I can choose not to earn income," he added. "Nothing is voluntary if I am not permitted to exempt myself. There is no such thing as a voluntary tax. If there were, it would be called something else."

Meanwhile, now that Republicans are back in control of both houses of Congress, the administration will seek to make a set of tax cuts set to expire in 2010 permanent, while working on another tax-cut package to include reducing the taxation on share dividends, the Financial Times reported last week.

The new tax cuts, in addition to the Federal Reserve's half-point cut last week in the rate banks charge each other for overnight loans, will be aimed at helping consumers reduce personal debt and get their own financial houses back in order without inducing another slowdown, according to White House economists.

"If we look at the personal savings numbers, the reach for excess in the 1990s is being unwound," said Larry Lindsey, Bush's chief economic adviser. "I think that will continue, and it makes it incumbent on us to maintain real personal disposable income.

"The tax code is a luxury the economy can no longer afford," he said this week.

Others were more pointed.

"While Republicans will control Washington, they'll also be under the gun to deliver an economic turnaround," said an analysis last week in BusinessWeek magazine. "If they pull it off, they can look forward to an even giddier Election Night 2004. If not, there won't be much room for excuses."

Paul was not optimistic.

"I don't think any more will happen [on tax reform and reduction] now than happened during the Reagan administration or since Republicans took over the House in 1994," he said.

"The one thing no one should expect, despite the rhetoric, is that their taxes are going to go down, because government needs money now more than ever," Paul added. "I hope there's serious debate, but I don't see much happening."


TOPICS: Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: taxreform
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To: copycat
Why? The average persons takehome pay would increase 20-30 percent.

If the average goes down by 20-30 percent, then the government revenue would go down by about the same amount. Are you planning on making the gov't 30 percent smaller? Sounds terrific to me. Now let's see you find a liberal that will go for it; ain't gonna happen in this session of Congress.

61 posted on 11/13/2002 5:53:02 AM PST by webstersII
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To: RightOnline
Good points. As happens all the time, when someone can do a quality job or provide a quality service or innovation for less, the rest either adapt or lose market share. The cost to business and then the end consumer is deeply embedded.
62 posted on 11/13/2002 5:53:09 AM PST by ApesForEvolution
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To: copycat
Have you even been audited?
63 posted on 11/13/2002 5:54:18 AM PST by ApesForEvolution
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To: Bigun
This is the best next step...
64 posted on 11/13/2002 5:56:16 AM PST by ApesForEvolution
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To: JohnHuang2
The more I think about it, the more I like the National Sales Tax. They need to start seriously cutting government spending though.
65 posted on 11/13/2002 5:57:07 AM PST by FITZ
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To: webstersII
The 'embedded' costs of the income tax is the part of the equation that you missing...
66 posted on 11/13/2002 5:59:03 AM PST by ApesForEvolution
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To: JohnHuang2
To this uninformed mind of the vast right wing unwashed majority, I never could figure out why WORK AND PRODUCTION was taxed! 'Work hard and we'll hold you back; do nothing but take and we'll reward you. Make everybody equal!' Time to get rid of this socialist mindset. This would be very equitable in that all the crooks would pay taxes on their ill-gotten gains (politicians?) when they buy that fur coat for their sugar baby or the diamond necklace for their wife. Purveyors of death (the drug dealers) would be paying tax on every luxury they buy.
67 posted on 11/13/2002 6:04:24 AM PST by hardhead
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To: ApesForEvolution
The 'embedded' costs of the current tax system amount to 20-30%? That sounds like alot, but you may be correct. Whether it's 20 or 30 or whatever percent, doesn't that money go to pay the salary of someone in gov't? There is certainly alot of waste in the system but most of the waste goes to pay someone's salary in the fed. gov't, which is what I'm saying about downsizing.

One of the features of the Reagan tax cuts of the 80's was that it was revenue-neutral. That was the only way they could get it passed in Congress.

68 posted on 11/13/2002 6:26:47 AM PST by webstersII
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To: nopardons
I guess your comments could be summarized as "don't do anything, it's too risky". I would wager anyone could throw that reasoning around. But don't you think the peole that are working on the details haven't thought of what you so *afraid* of?
69 posted on 11/13/2002 6:59:32 AM PST by Hostage
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To: webstersII; ancient_geezer
I may be wrong, but I believe the 'embedded' cost of the IRC is appr. 25%; i.e., the hamburger, the tires, the hard goods, etc., that you buy are 'inflated' due to the IRC.

I also believe that the bloat in spending on nefarious, unconstitutional 'programs' needs to come into line quickly.

And, it is my understanding that the "Fair Tax" is 'revenue neutral' and abolishes the IRS.

FReegards, AFE
70 posted on 11/13/2002 8:01:09 AM PST by ApesForEvolution
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To: goldstategop; nopardons; Jim Robinson; JohnHuang2
The IRS will still be there to collect the NRST, don't kid yourself.

Without repeal of the 16th amendment we will end up with BOTH a Income Tax and a sales tax. That has happened in EVERY country that has a NRST. In every country that has has an NRST it has evolved into A VAT tax.

The problems with the NRST as not with the concept. The problem is in the politics.....

The are currently 25 rat Govenors, 204 Rat congressmen + Bernie the Socialist, 46 rat Senators + Jeffords + Chaffee
, then we have the assorted RINO's. Given this REALITY, how would a repeal of the 16th amendment be accomplished? I don't see it.

I would love to see the IRS go away, since that isn't going to happen anytime soon let's look to restrict their power. The Flat Tax goes a long, a lot of the terror they inflict comes from their ability to interpet an incomphrensible tax code to screw tax payers. If we had a system like a Forbes/Armey Flat Tax, they are no rules for the IRS to interpet. It would also have the following benefits: End the double taxation on investemnt income (some flavors eliminate income tax for business's and tax shareholders on their capital gains and dividends), it gets rid of the death tax preserving family capital and business's. Also the SS tax isn't rolled into the system. Demographically the SS System will collapse, we will need to go to a system like Chile has, if we go to a SS Inclusive NRST it will be much harder to change SS and Medicare.

A final question how much did you pay in Sales Tax last year? I don't really remember the #, but I can tell you EXACTLY how much I paid in income and FICA.

If we are going to reduce goverment spending to reasonible levels (Freidman suggest 11-12% GDP for the Feds and 20% for all levels of goverment. People have to see the direct cost to them. For the Flat tax I would go to lower rate with smaller exemptions, I would also build in a tax cut.

71 posted on 11/13/2002 8:07:59 AM PST by Leto
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To: webstersII

My humble prediction is that this is the first step in a move to have a Value-Added Tax like they have in Europe ALONG with an income tax.

Ahhh! I really hate to be the one to inform you but for all practical purposes, our corporate tax is a VAT.

We've already got that, the issue comes down to how to get rid of it;

http://www.taxfoundation.org/foundationmessage03-00.html

"Under the WTO definition of the term, a sales tax is an indirect tax, as is an European-style VAT. The economic equivalence of an European-style VAT and a subtraction-method VAT is well-established. A subtraction-method VAT is essentially identical to a business income tax except that all purchases of plant and equipment may be expensed, rather than depreciated as under current U.S. law."

And every man woman and child in the nation, pays federal taxes through that VAT, (i.e hidden sales tax)

DO YOU PAY YOUR INCOME TAX
AT THE SUPERMARKET?

by D. Sherman Cox J.D. L.L.M. Taxation

And how not to perpetuate the problem.

The Forbes/Armey Flat tax is still an income tax with VAT, requires an IRS, and still taxes business passing on such taxes in higher prices to consumers, lower wages to employees, and lower returns to investors/retirees.

None other than the father of the flat tax, Robert Hall of Stanford University (along with Alvin Rabushka), in his 1995 Ways and Means Committee testimony said, "The Hall-Rabushka flat tax is a value-added tax."

Which was pointed out again in additional hearings in April of 2000:

http://waysandmeans.house.gov/fullcomm/106cong/4-11-00/4-11kotl.htm

"Robert Hall, one of the originators of the proposal(Flat Tax), who describes his Flat Tax as, effectively, a Value Added Tax. A value added tax taxes output less investment (because firms get to deduct their investment.)"

"The Flat Tax differs from a VAT in only two respects. First, it asks workers, rather than firm managers, to mail in the check for the tax payment on that portion of output paid to them as wages. Second, it provides a subsidy to workers with low wages."


72 posted on 11/13/2002 8:12:10 AM PST by ancient_geezer
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To: ApesForEvolution
If the IRS catches you bartering or buying items under the table you are breaking the law.
73 posted on 11/13/2002 8:18:06 AM PST by Leto
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To: ApesForEvolution; webstersII

I may be wrong, but I believe the 'embedded' cost of the IRC is appr. 25%; i.e., the hamburger, the tires, the hard goods, etc., that you buy are 'inflated' due to the IRC.

European and the FarEast VATs levied on businesses exempt those country's export products, while our income/payroll tax system embeds federal taxes into the price of all goods and services.

I researched the effect of repealing all income and payroll taxes laid on business on the theory that we as individual consumers end up paying those taxes at the retail counter.

The following article covers the mechanism on how the current Federal tax system propagates and is embedded into consumption expenditure.

DO YOU PAY YOUR INCOME TAX
AT THE SUPERMARKET?

by D. Sherman Cox J.D. L.L.M. Taxation

The 24% in the article considers only those factors actually paid to government out of impositions on the business in complying with the income, payroll, excise & tariff tax laws.

I also refer you to the section of the following article about the Income/Payroll tax system and its impact on our economy "A. Hidden Upstream Taxes. " paragraph 39.

"[39] Dr. Dale Jorgenson, Chairman of Harvard University's Economics Department, believes that the price of goods and services are inflated by about 20 percent or more by upstream taxes consumers ultimately bear. In a recent paper Dr. Jorgenson estimated the built-in taxes contained in the price of goods and services. /22/ In the chart above, he quantified the hidden component of tax, estimating that producer prices would fall on repeal of upstream taxes an average of about 22 percent."

Looking at the accompanying chart, the range of values from industry to industry appears to be about 12-25%.

Economists Gary and Aldonna Robbins of the Texas-based Institute for Public Policy examined the case of dry cleaning a shirt, with a particular eye toward uncovering the hidden costs of taxes in price.

The Robbin's attributed over 33.6% of "consumer prices" to be due to federal taxation passed on to the customer.

The Federal Tax System
http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=2125&sequence=0&from=1#pt1

From the Table 1 we may extract the proportionate contributions of each sector of taxes as they contribute to consumer price for the year 2000.

Those tax components which will not change prices as a consequence of enactment of HR2525

============================

Adjust for a conservative $600billion(1995 figure, AGCA '00, Payne '95, PillaBartlettNorquist '95 ) interest & cost of compliance effects.

Estimated change in consumption prices as consequence of enactment of a National Retail Sales Tax, repealing all business income and payroll taxes:

33.6*(1186.5/1945) = 20.5% in consumption prices

Which compares well with the Jorgenson empirical study of 22% fall in producer prices.

The two sources are in reasonable agreement, and I see 20-23% a reasonable value to expect prices to fall not only for customers here in the United States, but in our exports as well making them far more competitive on international markets.

74 posted on 11/13/2002 8:18:13 AM PST by ancient_geezer
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To: Leto

The IRS will still be there to collect the NRST, don't kid yourself.

H.R.2525
SPONSOR: Rep Linder, John (introduced 07/17/2001)
A bill to promote freedom, fairness, and economic opportunity by repealing the income tax and other taxes, abolishing the Internal Revenue Service, and enacting a national retail sales tax to be administered primarily by the States.
Refer:
http://www.fairtax.org & http://www.salestax.org

Just what is your IRS going to be doing after being defunded, with the state tax authorities doing what they already do with regard to there own sales tax, and that is collect it from the business; and all Income(corporate & individual) tax, all payroll (FICA uemployment etc.) taxes and all gift/estate taxes repealed, with IRS income tax records destroyed?

75 posted on 11/13/2002 8:24:21 AM PST by ancient_geezer
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To: ancient_geezer; webstersII
Thank you sir.
76 posted on 11/13/2002 8:29:12 AM PST by ApesForEvolution
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To: Leto; ancient_geezer
I believe ancient_geezer addressed this in post #75.
77 posted on 11/13/2002 8:32:26 AM PST by ApesForEvolution
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To: ApesForEvolution
And, it is my understanding that the "Fair Tax" is 'revenue neutral' and abolishes the IRS.

Not trying to be dense here, just want to make sure I understand what you are saying.

You are saying that the NST would be revenue-neutral (i.e., we would still be raising $2+ Billion for the gov't budget) and the 25% savings would come in the form of lower prices for commodities?

78 posted on 11/13/2002 8:38:44 AM PST by webstersII
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To: nopardons
If you sell your house it is a "used" item, and is not retail as in N. Retail. S.T. as per HR2525.

All good and services will drop about 20% in price and cost. As it is now, when you buy something you pay the income tax of every person and corporation that touched it during production.

NRST makes investment in production like a 401K, it is only taxed after the investment matures. There is a real advantage by taking x number of dollars out of the return on investment as opposed to taking that same amount out of the original investment.
79 posted on 11/13/2002 9:02:43 AM PST by Dead Dog
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To: ApesForEvolution
If you think the defunding of the IRS will survive markup in the congressional lawmaking process you are naive.

Again a couple of points, HR 2525 recommends repealing the 16th amemdment but that is FAR different than repealing the 16th amendment. My original point holds, given the makeup of congress and the composition of state goverments, what leads you toi believe that the rats and RINO's would go along with repealing the 16th amendment? For all the Pollyanna posts by ancient geezer, principled, Cheif and others, no one has said how and when the 16th amendment would actually be repealed. The language in hr 2525 and $4 will get you a cup of latte at Starbucks.

Again in EVERY country that has instituted a NRST the Income tax came back. As a conservative I look at reality and what History teaches us.

One more question, Why is it that there are democrat congressmen sponsoring HR2525 but no Dempcrat has ever been favor of the Forbes/Armey Flat Tax????? WHat do you think??? are there actually socailist who want smaller goverment???? I have my doubts.
80 posted on 11/13/2002 9:24:05 AM PST by Leto
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