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"I think, therefore I exist" -- Rene Descartes
Philosophy, An introduction to the Art of Wondering - Sixth Edition -- pages 36/37 | 1994 | James L. Christian

Posted on 11/04/2002 7:52:21 AM PST by thinktwice

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To: Aquinasfan
Could she (Ayn Rand)explain how the ideas in her head corresponded with an external reality?

"Truth is the product of the recognition (i.e., identification) of the facts of reality. Man identifies and integrates the facts of reality by means of concepts. He retains concepts in his mind by means of definitions. He organizes concepts into propositions -- and the truth or falsehood of his propositions rests, not only on their relation to the facts he asserts, but also on the truth or falsehood of the definitions of the concepts he uses to assert them, which rests on the truth or falsehood of his designations of essential characteristics."

Ayn Rand -- Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology (1979, page 63)

61 posted on 11/04/2002 10:52:42 AM PST by thinktwice
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To: Semper
Of course they do, as your example of a fake apple indicates.

A particular sense cannot err in sensing its proper object. Our perceptions regarding our sensations are fallible, however.

Otherwise, how could I ever know that fake apples exist?

62 posted on 11/04/2002 10:52:59 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: BikerNYC
Consciousness is the revealed-revelation of existents, and existents appear before consciousness on the foundation of their being...

Thanks, I think. Can you translate this? I can't make heads or tails out of it.

Aquinas would have reversed Descarte's axiom, making it "I am, therefore I think." In the theophany of the burning bush God revealed his name to us: "I AM." We too can say "I am," reflecting in a mysterious way the essential truth that we are created in the image and likeness of God.

Also, since we are spiritual/material composite beings, it is possible for us to objectify our own bodies because the soul is in a sense "outside" the body. Perhaps it would be better to say that the soul encompasses the body. Regardless, for this reason it is impossible for the soul to "turn around" and "observe" itself. That is why it is impossible to observe our own consciousness from "the outside."

63 posted on 11/04/2002 11:09:47 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: B-Chan; Aquinasfan
Everything except the existence of your own consciousness( in some form) requires a tiny element of faith. However I can't think of a satisfactory refutation to the pure logic of I think therefore I am.
64 posted on 11/04/2002 11:11:40 AM PST by weikel
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To: dyed_in_the_wool
The concept of existence, especially the Philosophic notion (seperate and distinct from the concept of 'being') wasn't really bandied about until the 19th century. In fact, it grew out of the very questions Descartes raised.

And if you only knew how much Descartes is found in Augustine!

65 posted on 11/04/2002 11:13:08 AM PST by cornelis
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Or should I say, Augustine found in Descartes?
66 posted on 11/04/2002 11:13:48 AM PST by cornelis
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To: discostu
You don't but if you personally are self aware then you can be sure of the existence of your consciousness in some form 100% without resorting to axioms or fate. You cannot be certain about the nature of your existence or reality but you can be certain your consciousness exist on some level.
67 posted on 11/04/2002 11:14:12 AM PST by weikel
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To: mg39
According to Rupke, Descartes 'Beast Machine' theory provided a twofold advantage. It protected scientists' mechanistic view of both animals and human beings against charges of heresy, and protected the reserved immortality for man, which was the favoured doctrine promoted by Catholicism.

You never know where you're going to encounter a gratuitous swipe at Catholicism. You can read St. Thomas' account of animal soul here.

Perhaps Rene should have spent more time studying Aquinas.

68 posted on 11/04/2002 11:14:27 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: thinktwice
"... the most famous phrase in Western philosophy . . ."

Are the ratings going UP? Where can I freep?

69 posted on 11/04/2002 11:17:14 AM PST by cornelis
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To: savedbygrace
Unnecessarily long. Can be: "I. Therefore I exist." Having a concept of I proves thinking has taken place, so it is not necessary to add the argument "think."

Why not dispense with the thinking bit altogether and posit that "I exist." It's tough to refute yourself on that one.

70 posted on 11/04/2002 11:17:42 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: thinktwice; All
................. the plot in Ayn Rand's Anthem, involves a society where use of the word "I" is totally banned.

???????????????????????????????????????????????

Interesting, but is Ayn Rand's original starting point for HER philosophy the contrapositive of Descartes?

Descartes = I think, therefore I am.

Ayn Rand = I am, therefore I think.

???????????????????????????????????????????????

71 posted on 11/04/2002 11:20:18 AM PST by DoctorMichael
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To: weikel
You cannot be certain about the nature of your existence or reality

My dog might have that problem, but I don't.

If your mind has no purpose, where does that place your soul?

72 posted on 11/04/2002 11:26:06 AM PST by thinktwice
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To: Aquinasfan
You never know where you're going to encounter a gratuitous swipe at Catholicism.

Who on this thread has specifically attacked Catholicism?

73 posted on 11/04/2002 11:26:22 AM PST by weikel
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To: thinktwice
You don't know not 100%.
74 posted on 11/04/2002 11:27:06 AM PST by weikel
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To: thinktwice
"Truth is the product of the recognition (i.e., identification) of the facts of reality. Man identifies and integrates the facts of reality by means of concepts. He retains concepts in his mind by means of definitions. He organizes concepts into propositions -- and the truth or falsehood of his propositions rests, not only on their relation to the facts he asserts, but also on the truth or falsehood of the definitions of the concepts he uses to assert them, which rests on the truth or falsehood of his designations of essential characteristics."

Ayn Rand -- Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology (1979, page 63)

But how is all of this done in a strictly material way?

I sometimes wonder whether she read Aristotle at all. Rand has the same problem that all empiricists do: bridging the gap between the knower and the thing known.

This other theory (ala John Locke) is often called "indirect realism" because it claims that we do not have direct access to extra-mental reality, but only indirect access, through impressions and ideas. Thus, on the Lockean view, there is a chain of causality: things affect us and our senses producing sense impressions and ideas, and these produce knowledge.

There is, then, the obvious problem of knowing that our impressions are true representations of reality. There is no way to check them that does not itself rely on sensation and so is open to the same possibility of error. And since, on this view, one cannot tell if one's senses are delivering accurate information, one has reason to doubt that there is any referent for what one senses. One can reasonably (?) say that there is no extramental object (solipsism), or that there may or may not be an object, and we may or may not observe it accurately (relativism). The Thomistic theory cuts off bad consequences like these before they begin by denying that what we directly (and properly) perceive or know are sense impressions or our own ideas. Instead, what we perceive is the thing, and the sensible species (in the sense organ) is that by which the identity that is perception comes about. It works in an analogous manner for the intellect: what we know is the universal existing in the thing; the idea is that by which we know the universal.


75 posted on 11/04/2002 11:27:11 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: eastsider
I'll bow to you on this one.
76 posted on 11/04/2002 11:27:12 AM PST by discostu
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To: weikel
typo btw fate=faith
77 posted on 11/04/2002 11:27:35 AM PST by weikel
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To: weikel
Right, that's what Descartes was playing with, eventually you do know, but you've got to follow the logic train.
78 posted on 11/04/2002 11:28:10 AM PST by discostu
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To: cornelis
And if you only knew how much Descartes is found in Augustine!

And how much Augustine is in Plotinus and how much Plotinus is in Plato and how much Plato is in Hermes...
What makes you think I don't know? Two semesters with an ex-Auggie, how COULDN'T I know?

"Our hearts are restless, O Lord, until they find their home in thee." -- St. Augustine of Hippo
79 posted on 11/04/2002 11:28:27 AM PST by dyed_in_the_wool
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To: discostu
Well unless your insane you accept the external world axiomatically but you can't be certain of its reality the way you can be that "you exist" it could be a big dream, elaborate simulation etc.
80 posted on 11/04/2002 11:31:05 AM PST by weikel
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