"I think, therefore I exist" -- Rene Descartes

Philosophy, An introduction to the Art of Wondering - Sixth Edition -- pages 36/37 | 1994 | James L. Christian

[unspun]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/941004/posts?page=450#450

[thinktwice]

Your link in post 441 leads to these words ...

Is this your point: somehow you believe this...

Genesis 1
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.

...is proof of the non-existence of God?

No!

What I've noted is ...

There is a contradiction in claiming that God exists in reality while claiming that God created everything -- including His own Self -- that exists in reality.

And what I've proved, thank's to that contradiction, is that the commonly identified causitive factor behind reality is beyond reality; that he, she, or it does not exist in reality; that he, she, or it transcends reality -- that God does not exist in reality.

[unspun]

There is a contradiction in claiming that God exists in reality while claiming that God created everything -- including His own Self -- that exists in reality.

unspun raises his head from Autumn's debris...

That would be a silly contradiction, alright. Rather, it is appropriate to say that God is the uncreated Prior to all else (other than God) that is reality. That'll be $0.10. Blessings to see in the light.

[thinktwice]

Blessings to see in the light.

Thank you, and the same to you.

There is, nowever, nothing silly in contradictions; they serve to advance truth and knowledge.

Ref ... Aristotle's Law of Non-Contradiction.

He who examines the most general features of existence, must investigate also the principles of reasoning. For he who gets the best grasp of his respective subject will be most able to discuss its basic principles. So that he who gets the best grasp of existing things qua existing must be able to discuss the basic principles of all existence; and he is the philosopher. And the most certain principle of all is that about which it is impossible to be mistaken... It is clear, then, that such a principle is the most certain of all and we can state it thus: "It is impossible for the same thing at the same time to belong and not belong to the same thing at the same time and in the same respect."
-Aristotle, Metaphysics, 1005b12-20
Formulation for the Law of Non-contradiction

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for the heads up, unspun! I love your answer!

Here is thinktwice's speculation from the previous post:

There is a contradiction in claiming that God exists in reality while claiming that God created everything -- including His own Self -- that exists in reality.

And what I've proved, thank's to that contradiction, is that the commonly identified causitive factor behind reality is beyond reality; that he, she, or it does not exist in reality; that he, she, or it transcends reality -- that God does not exist in reality.

One can deduce a number of interesting anomalies when the presumption is made that reality is defined by a single time dimension and three spatial dimensions. Nevertheless, as unspun observed, the God of creation is the uncreated Prior and has no such boundary limitations.

Notwithstanding unspun's argument, the cause/effect relationship thinktwice asserts goes completely out the window when we add an extra time dimension to the concept of “reality". This is because when there is more than one time dimension, our time is not a line but a plane.

Naturally, in our 4D timeline-like worldview we make limited observations, one frame at a time. But in a higher spatial dimension - and especially in higher temporal dimensions - the entire movie is one instance (or brane.)

(Notably, if the extra dimensions were only spatial it would appear like a tangled bowl of spaghetti.)

The fact that 73% of the mass of the universe is dark energy, or negative gravity causing acceleration, is in itself a good indication of another time dimension.

If you’d like to read more on this subject (all pdf):

Constraints on Extra Time Dimensions

Geometric Physics

The Curse of Dimensionality

[thinktwice]

One can deduce a number of interesting anomalies when the presumption is made that reality is defined by a single time dimension and three spatial dimensions.

Differential Geometry is what Einstein used to mathematically (and successfully) postulate on n-dimensional space; he added time to the known XYZ world of physics, and he discovered the 4-dimensional realm associated with relativity.

the cause/effect relationship thinktwice asserts goes completely out the window when we add an extra time dimension to the concept of “reality". .

I've identified a contradiction; I've not asserted a cause/effect relationship.

Nonetheless, an argument that transforms the issue of contradiction into a four dimensional cause/effect relationship won't sell because truth in the 4 dimensional world is simply time related truth rising out of a frozen-in-time 3 dimensional world.

This is because when there is more than one time dimension, our time is not a line but a plane.

Time is commonly referred to as man's 4th dimension, but ... you've said that there is more than one time dimension? Are you thinking about adding a 5th dimension -- sideways time? Or adding a 6th dimension -- 3-D time?

[katana]

If it weren't for the fact that there are lots of people who demonstrably are but who nonetheless show no signs of actual thought your reversal of "I think therefore I am" to "I am therefore I think" (sum ergo cogito) might have more merit.

[Junior]

For many people herein, though, the older credo ergo sum seems more applicable...

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your reply!

You say that you've "not asserted a cause/effect relationship" --- but that is what I gathered from the statement you made, i.e. that God caused the effect and thus cannot also be in the effect:

There is a contradiction in claiming that God exists in reality while claiming that God created everything -- including His own Self -- that exists in reality.

I agreed with unspun’s reply and was only adding the technical point that when time is viewed as a plane instead of a line, as in the case where the observer is in an extra time dimension, there is no directional arrow of time where cause must precede effect.

Time is commonly referred to as man's 4th dimension, but ... you've said that there is more than one time dimension? Are you thinking about adding a 5th dimension -- sideways time? Or adding a 6th dimension -- 3-D time?

It doesn't matter whether there is one or more extra time dimensions. The effect is the same. Each time dimension is a plane, it only matters which brane coordinates are chosen for the observer.

Nonetheless, an argument that transforms the issue of contradiction into a four dimensional cause/effect relationship won't sell because truth in the 4 dimensional world is simply time related truth rising out of a frozen-in-time 3 dimensional world.

If all time dimensions are removed there is no cause/effect relationship of any kind (or any such time sequenced construct) - no fields, no wave phenomenon thus no particles, only non-actualized spatial geometry.

[thinktwice]

Thank you for your response, but I have a question.

You wrote ... If all time dimensions are removed there is no cause/effect relationship of any kind (or any such time sequenced construct) - no fields, no wave phenomenon thus no particles, only non-actualized spatial geometry.

Can you imagine existence without time being involved?

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for your reply!

Can you imagine existence without time being involved?

Indeed, I can and do conceive of such a state, which would be roughly equivalent to the condition from which the Big Bang emerged.