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Why Men Won't Commit: Men's Atitudes About Sex, Dating and Marriage
National Marriage Project (Rutgers University) ^ | 2002 | Barbara Dafoe Whitehead and David Popenoe

Posted on 10/22/2002 11:24:51 AM PDT by shrinkermd

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To: Z in Oregon
" As to chivalry, it was always a two-part thing, and both halves were necessarily bound together:"

Another winner in the insightfulness column. Women always complained of inequality; that the male had all the power and control and that women were little more than slaves in the relationship. They did not understand that as women, they held all the power. They were 'the fair sex', the gentle, caring, compassionate and giving half of the arrangement, and privided a softness that was critical to the mix, for something that is formed in such a manner that there is only hardness in the mix is so hard it is brittle, and shatters rather easily. They forgot that they literally held a man's life in her hands when he commited to her, for he was giving her control of his life: his children.

A man does not of his own volition strive all his life merely to attain self-gratification as an end -at least, not once some maturity sets in. A man works to put food on the table, provide shelter, protect, and all in all be the shield, sword, and armour for the family!
He is trusting the female to raise and nurture the children in leiu of himself, who must be out there working to bring to the home those things they need to succeed in surviving. Women are the true power, for they are entrusted with bringing forth the next generation.

541 posted on 10/31/2002 11:50:12 AM PST by Utilizer
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To: IDontLikeToPayTaxes
"I "LOVE" to hear women say "I work harder than any man, I take care of kids all day!"

Yeh, well, in that situation it went in one ear and out the other. I got to spend time with the little one because of that one -and it backfired on the mom, since it got to the point where the baby would fret most of the day, and only quiet down and start smiling when I arrived at home. LOL!!

542 posted on 10/31/2002 11:54:26 AM PST by Utilizer
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To: GirlNextDoor
"The post above (#488) better explains my "I really doubt WE are going to be solving this." comment last evening"

Hmmm. I think My previous post just before this one presents My position a bit better, and does not quite align with your postulations, unfortunately. Still, perhaps it is merely a matter of perception. Let Me respond to some mail first, and then I will attempt to address your posting more attentively. Perhaps there is hope for you yet. :)

543 posted on 10/31/2002 12:02:44 PM PST by Utilizer
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To: GirlNextDoor
"Society has reacted to the failed system of patriarchy. A system which failed due to the unfair, imbalance wihin the family due to the lack of giving the *one* status of equality that is necessary. The equality of honor to both the female's role as well as the male's. "

I disagree with both of those statements. The "failed system of patriarchy" is nothing of the sort. Look all over the world and you will find by far the vast majority of the populace lives within a patriarchy. Does this truly equate to a failure to you?
If you are referring to the current situation in this country, it came about not because of a 'failure of the patriarchy', but because the males in the generation of the NOW nags buckled to their complaints. The results are a continual decline in the numbers of the normal nuclear family, and an increasing number of children raised in a single-parent family. The resulting lack of valid role-models and valid instruction in acceptable societal behaviours in the affected generations are producing ever-increasing numbers of individuals whose only concern is for themselves, and view the opposite sex as little more than competition or potential victims. An attitude directly attributable to the active alienation and hostility the custodial parent invariably displays towards the absent one. This is the only thing the children see, and thus they learn to act in only that manner as they gather in the years.

As for the "equality of honor to both the female's role as well as the male's", males have always honored the female of the species, for the reasons I expressed in My previous posting on this matter.

544 posted on 10/31/2002 12:42:03 PM PST by Utilizer
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To: GirlNextDoor
"If I were a guy you're darn right I'd have one signed! Cold - maybe so, but the girl has to understand it's the only course at present to obtain the legal natural balance a family needs for a stable environment. See it as, in itself, an act of love and commitment."

In this we are in agreement. However, in harmony with the theme running throughout this thread, women must understand that they have only themselves to blame for so many males feeling it necessary to insist upon the female's signature on a legal document essentially stating that they will not attempt to gut him if the marriage fails. And they get offended?

That being said, those PNA's are only valid until too many males are using them, and the lawyers decide that they are losing money on the deal. Once that happens, the courts will begin invalidating them on a systematic basis, most judges being attorneys or ex-attorneys themselves.

545 posted on 10/31/2002 12:50:16 PM PST by Utilizer
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To: GirlNextDoor
"But it has to START with what you choose to term the "illusionary" statement that "in our family, the man is still the head of the household." Sorry, but it does. The woman has to be willing to be strong and not cave in to the goodies that the law would hand her"

*Sigh* If I actually believed that was going to happen, I would be much more enthusiastic about the prospect of matrimony. Unfortunately, it has not been My experience that women are willing to relinquish such a power; the lure of it is too strong.
Referring back to My previous post where I remenisced upon My experiences in a "FAMILY COURT", I rarely, rarely saw a woman who expressed any reluctance to do so. I really dislike mentioning it, but I too have an 'ex' who literally took everything from Me. I count Myself fortunate, however. She put the poor sod who came after Me as the next in a relationship with her in jail. I could see it happening from afar, and wanted to warn him, but he believed her rants concerning Me so...
In a little cell he sits.

546 posted on 10/31/2002 1:03:27 PM PST by Utilizer
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To: M. Peach
"A woman worries about the future until she gets a husband. A man never worries about the future until he gets a wife.
45"

It has been said that marriage marks the achievement of a woman's dreams, and the end of a man's dreams.
547 posted on 10/31/2002 1:17:03 PM PST by XBob
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To: IDontLikeToPayTaxes
"Ding Ding! lol. I FINALLY figured this out about 3 years ago. Generally speaking, women LIKE to be treated like crap. That does NOT mean that a guy should ever ever EVER physically abuse women. What it means is that women like a guy that 1. stands her up on a date or cancels at the last minute or 2. hints that he has other girls that he sees, so he isn't necessarily wrapped up in one woman 3. doesn't show any of that chivalry crap previously discussed 4. and so on and so forth."

So true. And they never change. I believe I am one of those 'nice guys', but I am at a stage in My life where the prospect of matrimony is a tentative goal at best, and selectivity and the need to make a decision of quality are paramount in that matter. I find, however, that those women with whom I most pointedly (but in a gentlemanly manner) mention other women I associate with, and am less than certain to show up where they invite Me (those times where they corner Me into responding that I might show up) are the ones who keep going out of their way to come by, or stop Me on the street, or offer cookies or brownies or perhaps a place to sleep...

Bother! I mean I like women, but the more I hint to them I am not interested the more interested they become. Where can a poor mate like Me find a nice, conservative, homekeeper-type lass to settle down with? Someone who believes in the traditional values, to spend a quiet evening at home simply talking about life, and friends and family?

548 posted on 10/31/2002 1:18:20 PM PST by Utilizer
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To: Z in Oregon
471- patriarchy will never come back, as women vote on average 60% for the 'feeling' demonRATS, and only 40% for the 'thinking' republicans.
549 posted on 10/31/2002 1:27:31 PM PST by XBob
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To: IDontLikeToPayTaxes
bingo - give the man a cigar:

"Women are turned on by the bad boy types. Absolutely no question about it. The day I finally figured that out, I had women driving themselves crazy over me. I couldn't believe it!!
472 "

This is the modern 'key' to their panties.
550 posted on 10/31/2002 1:38:42 PM PST by XBob
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To: Utilizer
Where can a poor mate like Me find a nice, conservative, homekeeper-type lass to settle down with? Someone who believes in the traditional values, to spend a quiet evening at home simply talking about life, and friends and family?

A foreign country. Though you would do well to recognize bringing her back here would open her to the same infection the indigenous women suffer from...unless she also happens to be VERY well educated.

551 posted on 10/31/2002 1:58:49 PM PST by Woahhs
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To: Woahhs
True. There is always that chance. I know of two instances at least where a man married a foreign national and the women became 'americanized' to the point where they became essentially the same as all the rest of the women here. I must admit, however, foreign women really know how to treat their men, and are quite, quite feminine as well.
552 posted on 10/31/2002 2:02:26 PM PST by Utilizer
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To: Woahhs
Hmmm. I can't wait until Valerie comments on this one, although I could probably tell you her exact rhetoric before she even responds, LOL!
553 posted on 10/31/2002 2:08:00 PM PST by Utilizer
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To: Utilizer
I know of two instances at least where a man married a foreign national and the women became 'americanized' to the point where they became essentially the same as all the rest of the women here.

oh. Yeah, that happens...and some of them are worse than the women here.

I must admit, however, foreign women really know how to treat their men, and are quite, quite feminine as well.

I'll give you the feminine part. I've learned a lot by watching European women and studying how they dress and their manners and trying to emulate what they do. But how, exactly, do they treat men? What makes their treatment of men so special?
554 posted on 10/31/2002 2:08:10 PM PST by Desdemona
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To: Desdemona
Are you really interested in an honest reply? Not from a complaining viewpoint as certain others have alleged, but from a mate who has 'been there, done that'.
555 posted on 10/31/2002 2:10:05 PM PST by Utilizer
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To: Utilizer
Are you really interested in an honest reply?

Well, yeah...I mean, I'm somewhat curious. You have to understand, my great-grandparents were immigrants from Spain and my great-grandmother, legend has it, really waited on my great-grandfather hand and foot as did a number of other women in the family for their husbands and brothers. My brothers try to exploit this (from me) and I'm just curious.... My own own grandmother read me the riot act once because I told my brother to go get his own beer.
556 posted on 10/31/2002 2:17:17 PM PST by Desdemona
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To: Desdemona
Right, then. Give Me a few minutes to formulate a suitably reflective reply, and I will try to summarize has honestly as I can.
557 posted on 10/31/2002 2:23:51 PM PST by Utilizer
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To: Desdemona
My own own grandmother read me the riot act once because I told my brother to go get his own beer.

Personally, I find that mindset just as offensive. My problem is the female mindset that assumes males are suppose to do or perform anything the woman wants done, but doesn't want to do herself. That, and the assumption that she gets to dictate what is "enough." (i.e. wants help with housework, but also wants to say what's clean enough.) You can ask me for help, or you can tell me what you want done...you can't have both.

I can live without a woman, and I don't want a woman who can't live without me.

558 posted on 10/31/2002 2:31:23 PM PST by Woahhs
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To: Woahhs
You kind of had to be there. It was Thanksgiving, I had been in the kitchen doing - something - after setting the table (which is my job. being the only right-handed person and the only one at home that year who understands the concept of a salad fork)) and I put a load in the dishwasher. I went into the den and had JUST sat down when J said "hey, Des, go get me a beer." No please. I said, "You have two arms and two legs, go get it yourself."

He's my brother. Not father, grandfather, uncle, [husband]. Those men, well, that's different.
559 posted on 10/31/2002 2:37:39 PM PST by Desdemona
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To: Woahhs
I think I misread your post. SORRY.

I'll make a deal with whoever I end up with...I'll take care of the house (since I haven't met a man who really knows how to oil furniture or moves the couch when vacuuming) as long as he cuts the grass or lets me hire it done, because I'm VERY allergic to freshly cut grass. We're talking massive asthma attack.
560 posted on 10/31/2002 2:41:07 PM PST by Desdemona
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