VANITY-Question to Gun Experts re: MD sniper & ballistics records

10/11/02 | me

[finnman69]

Question to FR gun experts:

The anti-gun nuts are going to claim that mandatory ballistics records could have prevented the sniper shootings. How easy is it to change the barrels on weapons like this thereby rendering ballistics records moot?

It seems to me that this would be easy to do.

[jonascord]

A marginally adept hobbyist can turn a .308 SKS into a .223 by the simply expedient of using a plastic or wooden sabot. Remington tried it a few years ago, and while you had a 4,000 ft/sec .223, accuracy fell off dramatically.

A friend of mine once tried loading a .223 sabot in a hot .300 Winchester Magnum. He claims that it didn't work because the centrifical force was so massive that the bullet was flying apart within 100 yards. There were no prints on the paper, and at 200 yards he could easily shoot a 2 inch group with normal loads...

[MichiganConservative]

<[>could just go arrest the sniper since they would have his address.

The sniper is planning these attacks. He would plan for the ballistic fingerprint, as well. He could easily get a stolen gun, alter the gun, or make his own barrel or other parts. You get some metal working tools and blamo, you can make a gun or gun parts.

I just thought: as soon as someone uses a home-made gun or a gun with home-made parts is used in a crime, the media and the gun grabbers will start talking about "gun-grade" metal. They'll say "what could you ever need 'gun-grade' metal for other than making a gun?" It'll never end.

Of course, low-production, hand-made, custom guns cost a lot and it will be stolen, but that will be overlooked.

[verity]

People who SEE the D.C. Beltway murder could shoot his tires out, fire into the van (and possibly HIT him and/or KILL him by their shot), etc.

"Hold My Beer" alert!

[ARCADIA]

You don't have to replace or tune anything. Guns have a long lifespan, and normal wear will change the signature over time. These are not fingerprints. What are you going to do test the guns every week, or just every time the owner cleans his gun?

[taxcontrol]

I'm not trained as a gunsmith but have been trained by the US Army to handle the duties of an Infantry unit armory (mostly paperwork actually - but I digress)

Let's consider three basic types of weapons

Revolvers, Pistols and Rifles

With revolvers, it takes a bit of strength or leverage, vice grip and wrench to replace the barrel on some. Others make it difficult but not impossible.

Pistols - I'm slow and can change the barrel on a .45 in about 60 seconds.

Rifles - well depends. Some rifle barrels are as easy to change as revolver barrels. Some semi-autos require more attention due to the gas operated action that requires the gas tube to be treated with more care and sealed upon replacement.

Another related question would be "How difficult would it be to obtain or manufacture a barrel?"

A decent machinist could make most pistols and revolver barrels. I personally would have a concern that the pressure on the barrel would be rather high and would not trust such a barrel. With rifles, it's a bit more difficult, but the basic means of making the barrel are the same. The pressures within the barrel could be higher and thus would require better steel and no mistakes.

If the individual does not want to manufacture a barrel, they can be purchased from the various parts catalogs or over the Internet. I have not done so myself and do not know the legal paperwork required, though I doubt it would be extensive.

[ArrogantBustard]

Right now, everyone around D.C. are just SITTING DUCKS!!!

Not in Virginia, we aren't. Of course, you still have to see the freak to shoot him.

[norton]

See previous note - entirely legal and possibly necessary.
Extractors break, barrels come in various grades/weight/etc. and firing pins wear....

[Billthedrill]

The others are correct - it depends on the sort of firearm, but for many it's an easy procedure. The term for some aftermarket replacement barrels will give you an idea of how easy this can be - it's "drop-ins." To change the barrel, extractor, and firing pin in an M1911-style .45 ACP is a 5-minute process or under. On an AR-15 it's anywhere from 10 minutes to impossible depending on the model.

[SwinneySwitch]

"a nut asking well if the police had ballistics records they could just go arrest the sniper since they would have his
address."

Reminds me of the kid who asked, why we didn't just keep the FBI's 10 Most Wanted Criminals in jail when we took their pictures?

[Flint]

A. You can go to any law enforcement firing range and pick up .223 spent cartridges by the hat full. How bout you shoot with your .223 and throw down a spent LE cartridge, you then have LE chaising their own tail. Further more if you have aquired a supply that has been shot out of different weapons then every time they pick up a cartridge they get a different finger print.

B. Most of the military semi-auto and full-auto's have quick change barrels. This is so that when you shoot a barrel out, in the field, all you need to do is un-latch the old barrel, give it a half turn, pull it off and stick a new barrel on. You don't need the armory to put your rifle back in service.

C. There are supposed to, now, be 19,000 firearm finger print records available at this time. Not one of those firearms has ever been used in a crime.

[6ppc]

"Ballistic fingerprinting" guns is a stalking horse: to make it work you'd have to make it illegal to modify a gun once fingerprinted, which basically means wiping out the entire aftermarket parts and repair business.

Also wiping out serious target shooting as a sport. I shoot benchrest and go through two new barrels each year. Most BR shooters consider a barrel to be shot out between 1500 and 2000 rounds.

[mushroom]

Five minutes with a rat tooth file and I can change the signature of any weapon.

[rudypoot]

Yes, I know. But if a "fingerprinting for firearms" bill ever got introduced, it would have to address this sort of thing. It's about as intelligent as "fingerprinting" tires on a car.

[6ppc]

Drilling and rifling a barrel requires a lot of specialized equipment. On the other hand, chambering and threading a barrel blank is fairly simple and can be done with a lathe. Some barrels require additional machining (i.e. flats, cutouts and keyways) requiring use of a milling machine.

[wardaddy]

No.

[asformeandformyhouse]

I saw a guy on Fox hold up a picture of three guns he said were common in .223. Of course it had the ar-15, and the Mini-14, but it also had an SKS.

I've never heard of an SKS in .223 either. I also got a kick out of the 'sample' firearms they commonly show on TV. They never show the simple bolt action varmint rifle in .223 (which would be more inclined to better accuracy) or the various single shot rifles and pistols that use the round. This guy is only making shots of 100-150 yards. Any of these could easily do that.

[TC Rider]

But if a "fingerprinting for firearms" bill ever got introduced, it would have to address this sort of thing.

Once they get their ballistic fingerprinting law, they'll wait till the next crank shooter and admit the same flaws we point to now. Then they'll say they need to test the weapons and store them for us at the local armory so they can't be tampered with.

[angry beaver norbert]

Yeah, we'd better break out the waders for the flood of crap the media will let loose now. I saw them holding a parade of rifles across the screen when this madness started, practically everything from popguns with corks to Elephant rifles, saying "it could have been similar..." Oh, please!Everytime some moron proves he/she is one ...
I wonder if anyone has considered it may be an anti-gun extremist gone off the deep end, and out to throw gas on the gun control fire??? Anybody rule it out?

[Atlas Sneezed]

The case marking "fingerprints" due to firing pin, extractor, etc. are readily made meaningless by a bit of sandpaper, filing, or polishing compound.

The barrel rifling patterns (the fine grain fingerprint on the surfaces) changes over time, or you can buy "fire-lapping" bullets, which have abrasive surfaces, and which polish the inside of the barrel. A couple bucks at the range will polish away any of the old pattern. Then, scrub with a harrd stainless brish, and you will have an entirely new fingerprint.

[mad_as_he$$]

I don't see any reference to AK in .223 (5.56mm) and I have never seen one.