Another DC-area sniper-style shooting

Wife (FReeper nina0113) | October 4, 2002 | Steve0113

[Steve0113]

Another broad-daylight shooting just occurred, this time in Fredericksburg, VA, just off I-95. It's not even on the news yet.

About an hour's drive south of where the Montgomery County shootings happened, a woman was shot in the parking lot of a Michaels fabric store. My wife was in the store at the time. The victim had left the store and carried her purchases to her minivan. She unlocked the minivan and was loading her stuff into it when she was shot. No sign of the shooter.

No one else was injured.

The woman was taken away in an ambulance, condition unknown. Her license plate (which I'm not going to post) indicated that she had several children.

[Lazamataz]

It looks like your arrow is pointing directly at Washington DC.

[GirlShortstop]

Has media discussion of terrorism been banned or something?

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The arrest indictment in Oregan points out .223 shell as part of evidence. See point 20 ... can not cut/paste.^

[EverOnward]

Thanks, but since I've done homicide prosecutions in this area, I don't need to read more of your analysis on the criminal law. I'm just happy you posted again. I thought for a moment you had given up your point, which is causing my delight and guffawing here as me and my boyfriend read your points. Please, I do insist: keep trying to persuade me. Don't know WHEN I've had this much fun.

Be careful, mam, as your maturity(?) is showing.

[cricket]

"I thought for a moment you had given up your point, which is causing my delight and guffawing here as me and my boyfriend read your points"

just an 'oops' perhaps. . .you probably meant to say, "my boyfriend and I read your points". . .

[null and void]

Charlie Whitman, 1 August 1966.

Who, if memory serves tried to get treatment for his fear of doing somthing violent. An autopsy revealed a walnut sized tumor in his brain.

Møøselimbs don't need a tumor to act like that...

[null and void]

Transcribed:

"20. On or about October 24, 2001, in the District of Oregon, unindicted coconspiritor Khaled Ali Steitiye, who had previously engaged in weapons training with defendants BATTLE, FORD, AL SAOUB, and A. BILAL, possessed a loaded Makarov 9mm handgun, a 7.62 caliber SAR-1 rifle, four 30-reound ammunition magazines each containing 30-rounds of 7.62 ammunition, one .223 caliber casing, a metal ammunition can containing 703 rounds of .22 caliber ammunition, and one metal ammunition can containing 237 rounds of 7.62 ammunition, and approximately $20,000 in cash."

"one .223 caliber casing"

Now why would he have one .223 case and 703 rounds of .22 rimfire, hmmmm?

[FreeTheHostages]

Maturity? Nah -- surely you jest.

[FreeTheHostages]

Thanks.

[FreeTheHostages]

wow. that's not good news for us in the area.

[JasonC]

Who but an idiot would want to, though? From a pistol, you have less muzzle velocity and accuracy. They seem to be shooting from a vehicle, or at the most from just outside a vehicle, so what is the point of a handgun? A rifle is just as concealed inside a van, and not to overstress the blatantly obvious, but half a dozen shootings in broad daylight at public locations hardly suggests concealment is the first priority of the perps. The most likely thing by far is an AR-15 or something similar (mini-14, etc).

As for the police, I sure hope they aren't just looking for white vans and calling it at that. There is obviously no assurance they are restricted to the same vehicle, two days into it. Physical descriptions of the suspects from video camera evidence, if there is any as some reports claim, would obviously be more useful. And should be released to the public if available.

Some may also be wondering what can be done about such tactics. The obvious answer is simply for the guns all sorts of ordinary people have to be out and waiting for the perps. The easiest way to stop this kind of thing is for an armed bystander who happens to be on the spot to intervene. If you think the 1 out of 250 in the police forces can do it all for you, think again. They can investigate afterwards, but not protect everywhere. Something like 1 out of 5 civilians armed, can.

[stuartcr]

Let's just hope that the person you shoot back at really is the bad guy, and not just another scared, ARMED, innocent victim like yourself, or your neighbor. Have you ever shot at someone in a situation like this, or just at targets? Do you believe that both you and the others that are carrying will react correctly?

[tortoise]

The advantage of using a suppressor over a silencer is that full-power ammo can be used, giving the gunman the full range and power of the rifle. The sonic boom created by the bullet isn't as loud as the muzzle blast, and it doesn't give away the position of the shooter.

Very true. Because the sound of a suppressed supersonic bullet actually has a linear source rather than being a point source like a normal muzzle blast, smart and experienced shooters can make the supersonic suppressed bullet sound like it is coming from a point source anywhere along the bullet path. Basically bullet ventriloquism. If the bullet passes very near a reflective surface (such as a rock, concrete surface, or even a tree), a person not very close to the bullet trajectory will "hear" the bullet come from the reflector, perpendicular to the actual bullet trajectory. This effect is usually lost below the noise floor in an unsuppressed shot, but in a suppressed supersonic shot it becomes the primary sound.

Good snipers know these tricks, and will use them.

[tortoise]

2. The .223 is not a high-powered round, fired from anything.
3. What type of bullets? Full Metal Jacket (FMJ) is military type. By law. Goes right through, wounding.
4. Fragment rounds indicate hollow points, or better (Glaser, Magsafe). But if they were pre-fragged, doubtfull recovery.

You are essentially wrong on all accounts. .223 FMJ fragments explosively at relatively short ranges (<150 yards). This is a very different kind of fragmentation than Glasers or similar, and vastly more lethal because the fragments move at high velocity perpendicular to the axis of rotation rather than along a parallel trajectory like a Glaser or fragmented pistol bullets. Apples and oranges.

If you've ever seen a .223 FMJ wound, you'd know what I mean. It leaves a pretty good sized cavity in a person that looks like a little bird-shot grenade went off inside the body. The tissue is perforated with bits of gravel in all directions, not just in the wound channel. Its a much nastier wound than what you typically get from a 7.62x39 or even most .308s.

[null and void]

TMI

[FreeTheHostages]

Thanks. This I didn't know. Good to learn.

[Bigg Red]

Yikes! A pattern! Reminds me of that enviro-nazi of a few months ago who drew a smiley face on the map and started planting pipe bombs along the "ROUTE" he had drawn.

[Neil E. Wright]

'k ... here's the deal ..... :)

you CANNOT remove the folding stock to turn it into an overgrown TC .... it is ILLEGAL to convert a rifle into a pistol .... by removing the folding stock you in effect turn it into a "sawed-off" rifle .... that would get you a quick trip to "Club Fed".

If it is a new weapon (post ban), it doesn't have a bayonet lug, and you CANNOT add one. That would make it a prohibited weapon under the so-called "Assault Weapons" ban .... it would also get you a quick trip to "Club Fed." NOR can you add a folding stock to a "post-ban" weapon. So you definitely want to purchase a "pre-ban" gun if you want those items.

Regarding the polymer stock, my gun guy thinks that they are available (straight stocks, anyway. He's not sure about polymer folders). You might try checking at Cheaper-than-dirt. Hope this info helps you. This is NOT intended as legal advise. Be sure to check the laws of your state VERY CAREFULLY before purchasing any weapon. Your mileage may vary. Not responsible for lost or stolen items. Close cover before striking. Don't drink and drive.

M1 Carbines are fun to shoot and ammo is relatively easy to come by. I wish I hadn't sold mine .... :(

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Toward FREEDOM

[cpdiii]

You are correct Tortoise. In addition since the slug is high velocity, you will get a temporary cavity in the flesh as the slug passed through the target. This cavity (lasts only fractions of a second) is a result of the shock wave traveling through the flesh. This shock wave will rupture blood vessels that are not in the path of the slug.

I do beg to differ on the 308. A 308 (7.62-51) loaded with either a hollow point or soft nosed expanding slug is more potent and a longer range caliber. However, either caliber in the hands of a good shooter with a good weapon is deadly and accurate up to 300 yards. In the hands of a sniper, with a good weapon and good optics 500 yard shots (with the 308) would have a very high success percentaage.

[tortoise]

I do beg to differ on the 308. A 308 (7.62-51) loaded with either a hollow point or soft nosed expanding slug is more potent and a longer range caliber. However, either caliber in the hands of a good shooter with a good weapon is deadly and accurate up to 300 yards.

At close range, the .308 really isn't more potent on a human target. As counter-intuitive as it sounds, the .223 does more damage. Beyond 100-200 yards though, the .308 definitely has the advantage in wounding potential. That said, there are .308 configurations that exhibit similar terminal characteristics to the .223 in its envelope, but these configurations are not common for that caliber unlike the .223. Since neither was designed with this in mind, it was a matter of luck. The .223 really is best suited and most effective as an assault rifle cartridge, for fast and furious in-your-face firefights.

In my personal opinion, one of the finest all-around cartridges for this type of work is actually the 6.5mm-08 (currently loaded commercially as the .260 Remington). All the short-range lethality potential of the .223, but with a trajectory and penetration profile that looks almost as good as the .300 Win Mag. All sitting on top of a .308 case, and with less recoil. In my humble opinion the 6.5mm-08 is one of the most optimal commercial cartridges for all manner of rifle work currently being produced. Velocity like a varmint cartridge, penetration very few dangerous game cartridges can match, uncannily consistent accuracy in almost any loading, and modest recoil.

[Salgak]

I suspect terrorism here, but that's NOT why the FBI was brought in immediately, it was for their expertise in ballistics and snipers. . .