IRISH TRAVELERS - Experts shed light on reclusive, nomadic clans that roam the country

Associated Press ... live news feed | September 25, 2002 | LISA FALKENBERG

[NYer]

DALLAS (AP) _ The tearful testimonial Madelyne Gorman Toogood gave in front of glaring TV cameras after she was videotaped beating her daughter was starkly uncharacteristic of the reclusive, media-shy Irish Travelers culture to which she belongs, experts say. Toogood, who was caught beating her 4-year-old daughter, Martha, in a department store parking lot, said she is a member of the clannish, nomadic culture of Irish descendants, most of whom came to the United States as refugees during the potato famine in the 1840s. ``By nature, they're very reclusive people,'' said Joe Livingston, a South Carolina state investigator who has been tracking Travelers for nearly two decades. ``They tend to shy away from publicity.''

Some law enforcement experts who have studied the culture paint it as a secret society, fond of material wealth evidenced by gaudy jewelry and new vehicles. Police often associate Travelers with scams involving fraudulent home repair that target the elderly. They tend to use aliases, carry bogus identification cards, and avoid contact with non-Travelers, whom they call ``country folk,'' authorities said.

But professors and academics said the reclusiveness is a defense mechanism against stereotypes and the ancient persecution that has haunted nomadic peoples throughout history. Travelers, who may be Irish, English, or Scottish, have no more criminals among them than any other ethnic culture, experts said. ``If there were, they could not sustain their living,'' said Larry Otway, who began studying Irish Travelers in 1977 and has worked as a paralegal and adviser on court cases involving Scottish travelers. What the clans in the culture do share, Otway said, is a nomadic lifestyle, a language called ``Scelta'' with roots in Gaelic and Romani, an almost ``pathologic'' devotion to Catholicism, and an anti-bureaucratic form of self government that he describes as a ``consensus democracy.''

The largest Traveler settlement is a group of 3,000 in Murphy Village, S.C., experts said. Toogood is believed to belong to the Greenhorn Carrolls, a Traveler group in the Fort Worth area. Estimates of the U.S. Traveler population vary from 20,000 to 100,000. Ian F. Hancock, a professor at the University of Texas who wrote the Irish Travelers entry for the Encyclopedia of the South, said a distraught Toogood called him Thursday seeking advice. ``She was scared to turn herself in because she knows very well how the police feel about the Irish Travelers,'' said Hancock, who has a reputation as a sympathizer of the group. ``She didn't think she'd get a fair shake and she knew she'd been rough with the child.''

Toogood, who also has two young sons, remains free on a $5,000 bond and is scheduled to appear in court Oct. 7. If convicted, she faces up to three years in prison. She was scheduled to have a 90-minute supervised meeting with her daughter on Tuesday but the child, who is in foster care, was sick. An attorney for the state said Toogood would be allowed to see Martha on Wednesday if the girl has recovered from the flu.

Hancock and other academics said they believe Toogood's case has been sensationalized by the media because of her ethnicity. ``As bad as what she did, and it's inexcusable, I still think there's an awful lot of profiling going on,'' Hancock said. ``Very much is being made of her ethnic background. If she were German American or Italian American, would that even be an issue?''

AP-ES-09-25-02 0610EDT

[Domestic Church]

I know of a DRE, who works in their parish in South Carolina.

[RightOnline]

"Hancock and other academics said they believe Toogood's case has been sensationalized by the media because of her ethnicity. ``As bad as what she did, and it's inexcusable, I still think there's an awful lot of profiling going on,'' Hancock said. ``Very much is being made of her ethnic background. If she were German American or Italian American, would that even be an issue?''"

No, Hancock, you babbling idiot, it has nothing to do with her "ethnicity" (don't forget: she's white; you're playing the wrong card......try to keep up with current events)........it has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that she beat the living s**t out of a baby girl, viciously, and got CAUGHT at it. Also, Hancock, you moron, don't you understand that the only thing she's sorry about is getting caught???

We sure know..........

[Goldwater Girl]

Travellers within Ireland are treated like outcasts- local media is always issuing "traveller alerts" when they are spotted heading for a locale. Local law enforcement harrasses them until they move on. To listen to the Irish- they deny them as nationals- and happily persecute them as criminals.
I have seen their "camps" there- just a collection of ratty looking trailers and ancient vehicles- no fancy cars in sight- pulled into a circle with a central open fire. They live in squalor, their children are uneducated.
Ran into a bunch of them in a rural town on the West coast a few years back- we had stopped at a small pub for a snack and potty break. A couple of men were playing pool- they made a phone call, and soon there were about 30 of them- including women and kids- eyeing our jewelery and offering to tell our fortune- singing songs, dancing, begging for coins. They kept coming- and it got really uncomfortable- we had a devil of a time getting past them to the car- finally, my husband pitched a handful of coins behind them- and we fled as they scrambled for the money in the dirt.
Charming bunch.

[mickie]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the father.
According to tonight's Factor, he has a long rap sheet.
Arrested in Philly for robbing an 80 year woman, and said "all the men in his group" do the same thing.....or something to that effect.

[Goldwater Girl]

Could explain why they put the girl into foster care...

Have you heard anything about the child's injuries? One blow to the face with a closed fist should have broken her nose- split her lip, or eyebrow- should be visible marks. The tape appeared to show multiple blows, with considerable force, both open hand and closed fist. Why is there no mention of her injuries?
Something is not right.

[NotJustAnotherPrettyFace]

After a few years they became notorious in the area for the sealcoating scam. This is where they would knock on your door and tell you they had sealcoating materials left over from a job down the street and they could give a great discount on your driveway.

Bingo. They tried to hit us up in a northern burb of Chicago - we happened to live pretty close to an exit off the Tri-State Tollway - easy getaway for people like this, wouldn't you say?!

[des]

And children in America who are found starving in closets are not at all interesting.

[Salvation]

And you do know that "Catholics for a Free Choice" was started and still is bolstered by non-Catholics?

[Salvation]

The European gypsies, I believe, are originally from Romania.Hungary, I always thought, was the home of the gypsies.

[Mad_Tom_Rackham]

The European gypsies, I believe, are originally from Romania.Hungary, I always thought, was the home of the gypsies.

This is my understanding as well. From Romania, thus Romani. They were country-less, thus travelers/gypsies. Blam's earlier post about Egyptian expatriots was interesting, though.

[nutmeg]

FYI

[Bohemund]

There are a large number of Gypsies in Romania, but the Gypsies originated in India, moving into Europe sometime around the 10th century A.D. (The name "Gypsy" comes from the erroneous theory that they originated in Egypt.)

The name "Rom" or "Romany" comes from their language, Romany, which is an Indo-Iranian language closely related to those spoken in northwestern India.

See this for more information.

There seems to be no ethnic connection between these Gypsies and the Irish Travellers.

[nopardons]

No, NOT Hungary. There have been and still are, gypsies living all over Europe and the Britsh Isles.

They have ALWAYS been known for their scams and in several countries ( Spain, Russia, Hungary ) their music and dancing ability. From the Middle Ages forward, there have been " Gypsy Laws ". Some kings gave them certain protections; others had the military chase them on sight.

The English have, for centuries, told their kids that gypsies steal children. They also viewed them as horse theives, who did nothing but run scams. Gypsies STILL hang out in London ( around Harrods and in the Undergraound ), using their children as pickpockets.

Gypies have been so notorious, that you'll find them in a lot of classic literature ; " THE HUCHBACK OF NOTRE DAME ", is but one example.

[nopardons]

There are several interesting books by and about gypsies. I'll post the titles, if anyone is interested.

blam is correct; they did originally come from India. They speak " Romani " , which is a patois and similar to the way Yiddish came into being. There are variations of Romai ( Romay ) and just because two people are gypsies, doesn't mean that they speak the same form of it.

[nunya bidness]

Travellers = Tinkers = Gypsies

Not necessarily. I come from tinkers and the travellers are a decidedly American phenomenon.

Also the gypsies were a grade above us when it came to access to booty. The history (if you believe it) is that the hierarchy was established in the Middle Ages. Gypsies took the swords of fallen warriors and the tinkers took what was left.

In the case of travellers they run scams here. I had them try the driveway deal on me a few years ago. I pulled a sidearm and they went on their way.

Two days later I noticed a check missing from one of my trucks. The bank cashed it for a thousand dollars and never traced it.

They give Irish a bad name but then again they're not really Irish.

[185JHP]

I don't know if you're referring to the "fourth nail" nonsense I've read about gypsies spouting- that a gypsy stole a nail from the Roman soldiers, so our Lord only had three nails driven into Him, so He said "Because of that, it's OK for you people to steal!"?

[Happygal]

come from tinkers and the travellers are a decidedly American phenomenon

In Ireland Traveller is the politically correct name for itinerants or gysies. Or rather tinkers (who used to sell tin pots etc. door to door) or knackers (who used to take away dead horses etc.) And, as far as I know travellers are an Irish phenomenon. They cause a lot of problems over here because of their transient nature, trespassing on land, living on the side of the road in unofficial camps, leaving untold amounts of rubbish for them. When the local authorities try to put up proper serviced halting sites for them, they also cause problems in the community because of the NIMBY syndrome amongst the settled community. And in fairness who can blame them.

[kcvl]

The Greenhorn Travellers - the Carrolls, Gormans, McDonalds, Daleys and Jennings - came into the spotlight in January 2000 when five of their young members were killed in a wreck on Interstate 30 in Fort Worth.

The accident, one of the worst in city history, shocked the public. Questions arose when authorities learned that none of the boys was older than 14 and four were carrying false driver's licenses misrepresenting their ages.

After the accident, some Traveller families withdrew their children from area schools. Victims' families met with investigators only once.

Livingston, who is researching the Madelyne Gorman case, said he has discovered that Gorman has driver's licenses in Indiana, Missouri, Texas and New Jersey. Computer searches reveal she has listed addresses in Mission and Fort Worth, Texas; Elkhart, Ind.; and Independence, Mo., among others.

"This again, shows the transiency of these people," said Livingston, who said he received a call from an informant Friday morning about the case. "My guy says they've gone underground. They're not going to find this girl." In addition to the arrest warrant in Indiana, Gorman is wanted in White Settlement and Fort Worth on unrelated charges.

In White Settlement, a warrant was issued for Gorman's arrest April 9 after she failed to pay a $202 traffic ticket. She had been cited for driving without a valid driver's license Dec. 12, 2001, according to the city's municipal court clerk.

The next month, Fort Worth police issued a warrant for Gorman's arrest after she failed to appear in court to face theft charges, said Lt. Mack West of the Tarrant County Sheriff's Department.

Gorman and another woman, Rose Ann Carroll, had been arrested March 27 at a Kohls department store in Fort Worth on charges of theft from $50 to $500, according to computer records and a Fort Worth police report.

[NYer]

Very interesting. They even have a saint!

" El Pelle " a strong willed Spanish Roma lived around Barbastro, Spain working mostly as a horse trader.  He was born into a poor Roma family in the region of Aragon. As he became more successful in his trade, he gained the reputation of being an honest man who tried to improve the relations between the area's Roma and the gaje or non-Roma . Deeply religious,  " El Pelle " was arrested in July, 1936 by an anti-clerical militia after he publicly defended a priest.  When asked whether he had any weapons,  " El Pelle " extracted a rosary from his pocket. At the age of 75,  he was killed by a firing squad along with a number of other priests and souls who had been arrested in the area by forces opposed to Gen. Francisco Franco. " El Pelle "...died for the faith that he lived out,"  the Pope said  " His life showed how GOD, Jesus Christ is present in various people and races and that all people are called to holiness".

[Barnacle]

“an almost ``pathologic'' devotion to Catholicism”

What the hell is a pathological devotion to Catholicism? Is the AP trying to suggest that their claiming to be Catholic has something to do with the Irish Travelers' criminality?

Just another example of the how Bolsheviks hate Catholics.