Women Believed to be members of Irish Travelers (Woman Taped Beating Child an "Irish Gypsy")

WNDU-TV, South Bend, Indiana ^ | September 20, 2002

[Shermy]

Some local authorities will not refer to Madelyn Gorman/Toogood and Margaret Daley as 'Travelers' but a local expert on Travelers says from the video he's seen, he believes the women are Irish Travelers. There are an estimated 12,000 to 20,000 Irish Travelers in the United States, mostly in South Carolina and Texas. This is where it is believed Gorman and her family is from.

Travelers live a nomadic lifestyle, moving from town to town in large groups to do seasonal work but they've also been labeled, by some, as scam artists. Most Irish Travelers in this country are descendents of 19th century Irish immigrants. They are also known as Irish gypsies or "tinkers".

Traveler expert

Elkhart resident Don Wright has been investigating the Travelers for 24 years. He's published books including one called 'Scam!'. Wright says many of these scams take place in our own backyard. Between April and October, there are between 15 to 20 families in the Michiana area running these scams. When Wright saw the Kohl's parking lot assault video, he knew this was more than just a case of child abuse.

After seeing the video, Traveler expert Don Wright says he called police and other Travelers and came to this conclusion. "I started making calls right away and found out, yes indeed, they were Irish Travelers."

Reasons behind the beating

Wright believes the beating happened for one of two reasons. "The little girl gave away the scam to an employee or the mom was so ticked off at not getting refunds she took it out on the little girl. As far as beating a kid like this, I've never heard of it."

Wright has heard of Travelers working in the Michiana area. He says certain things in the video lend him to believe these women are Travelers. "The fact that the license plate was from Texas - I knew who they were."

Why do they travel here?

Wright wrote about Travelers who travel from Fort Worth, Texas to Indiana in his 1996 book called 'Scam!' "A majority of the Travelers come to Elkhart a few times a year to pick up travel trailers they use for different scams." Wright says the trailer is a scam in and of itself. They live in it until they can sell it for an exorbitant price. Meanwhile, men of the Travelers do house scams and the women do shoplifting scams. Wright says it is common to take along their children. "This is on the job training for kids. They learn to shoplift at their mothers elbows."

Prosecutor Chris Toth said today that the reason Kohl's began to follow these two women and their daughters was because they had scammed the store before. Police in Fort Worth say in March they arrested Madelyn Gorman for an alleged theft at Kohls.

[Mr. Silverback]

LOL!!

[Mr. Silverback]

Scary how much she reminded me of my little girl. That's been happening a lot lately...Samantha Runnion reminded me of her, then a day or two after Samantha's body was found, there was a girl in an Afghan refugee camp on the cover of the Voice of the Martyrs newsletter who looked like a slightly Arabized version of both girls. Now this...I'm praying for the kid; that's all I can do but it's also the best thing I can do.

[A. Pole]

The Tinkers really are different.

I do not question it. But they might have the common origin, even if they have separate language and have admixture of Celtic blood. Dispersed nations can develop into very distinct groups like Latino speaking Sephardic Jews and Yiddish speaking Ashkenazim.

See the question of Travellers origin

[Devil_Anse]

I think you are both right. One thing I know A. Pole is right about is the political correctness thing. Groups that have the lifestyle many posters here have described have a culture which is very similar to that of people who have long been called Gypsies. But "Gypsy" is a forbidden term in the U.S., you see, b/c those groups have taken advantage of the "anti-discrimination" laws here--laws which basically outlaw common sense. We are not allowed to use our prior knowledge of anything to make any sort of decision. (For example, we're not allowed to notice if a person who has fuses coming out of his sneakers looks like he might be of Arabic descent.)

American Mother, being fascinated by Gypsy culture, etc., I read a lot on the subject. Once I saw a special on the "Irish Travellers" (the same Murphy's Village group) on one of those shows similar to "Primetime." I watched as they described a group of people whose ways were described as identical to everything I'd ever read about Gypsies. But the word Gypsy was never once mentioned. At the very end, one of the "travellers" interviewed said she could find out if a person was "one of us" any time. If she saw someone and wasn't sure if they were a "traveller," she said she'd simply go over to the person and ask discreetly, "Romany chal?" That one little phrase, right at the end of the show, revealed the link btw these people and Gypsies. Ethnically, the "Irish Travellers" may not be the same as the people we picture when we hear "Gypsy," but the culture is pretty much identical. I think the Irish Tinker group--or whatever they are called--began from Gypsy influence, and just changed ethnically over the centuries, while still preserving what might be called Gypsy culture.

Gypsies seem to have molded themselves to fit the ways of whatever country they happen to live in. They are not all bad; in fact, they have definite rules and seem to have their code of what is decent behavior, just like any other culture. But one of the general principles I've always read they have is: do not cheat your own people, but it is okay to cheat a "gadjo." That's us, folks--gadjos (or is the plural gadji, I can't recall.)

Any of us who thinks they can out-con these people--or thinks that this little girl will ever be separated from her mother, or thinks that the mother will ever be held for long in any jail cell--is truly deserving of the name "gadjo," which, in my memory, is loosely translatable as "naive, simple, trusting peasant."

[Devil_Anse]

Very interesting article, thanks for posting it.

[willyone]

Because it is not un PC to profile whites. These Micks are white so fair game. How can a group of people maintain a criminal lifestyle for generations? That is the remarkable part.

[PJeffQ]

Dont drive into that neighborhood.... I've heard you get company on your tail pretty fast

[PJeffQ]

there are several compounds around the country... just a major one in SC on U.S. 25 near I-20

[RipSawyer]

My first guess is that she was treating her child in a way that was considered "normal" by a very large part of the population two generations back. Many people today either have forgotten or are too young to know that it was not considered anything unusual to beat a child with a stick until the last half of the twentieth century. In fact it was quite common to make the child go and cut a green stick, known as a "switch" and bring it to the parent for the beating. "Spare the rod and spoil the child" was not idle chatter in those days. I don't necessarily condone such treatment but many of those so treated turned out a great deal better than most of today's spoiled children.

[homeschool mama]

Hon...beating your child is NOT discipline. Heavens...

[homeschool mama]

Beating is not discipline. There's a difference.

[MissAmericanPie]

Hurts the heart doesn't it. You long to make it up to them, to give them the carefree childhood they have been denied. Prayers are the best thing we can offer, and loving your own precious gift, your own little angel.

[homeschool mama]

prayer bump <><

[matrix]

I was stationed at RAF Mildenhall in the UK in the 70's. We knew of the "Gypsy Knockers" very soon after arrival. Word was among the English to hide your valuables, kids and wives if the "Knockers" were in your neighborhood. They would steal, scam, and pilfer anything they could get their hands on!

They usually lived and traveled in very ornate and plush trailers (or caravans, as the English call them), from town to town. A scary lot!

[ErnBatavia]

I should have mentioned that this happened when we lived in a northern burb of Chicago,

Years ago, I visited old USMC buddies in the Kankakee area; we did an overnight camping/fishing gig on either the Kankakee or Iriquois River.......there was one little area with lots of ratty trailers; I was told that those were "Gypsies" who spent part of the summer there every year, scamming their way through the midwest.

[Chemnitz]

Now children beat up their parents, or murder them, like the lovely boys in California who shotgunned their parents in cold blood.

There should be some physical discipline of children, but I believe it should be used sparingly. That may be because I am now a grandfather. I once patted my granddaughter on the hand because she did something wrong. She looked at me with amazement and amusement.

Overall most children do well when things are explained.

I imagine this little girl was used to getting whacked for doing wrong according to their culture. She may have been so used to it that she didn't cry, prolonging the episode. I am not justifying it. However, I doubt that anyone will change what is going on in that ethnic group.

[Incorrigible]

Sheesh! Irish Bump.