Women Believed to be members of Irish Travelers (Woman Taped Beating Child an "Irish Gypsy")

WNDU-TV, South Bend, Indiana ^ | September 20, 2002

[Shermy]

Some local authorities will not refer to Madelyn Gorman/Toogood and Margaret Daley as 'Travelers' but a local expert on Travelers says from the video he's seen, he believes the women are Irish Travelers. There are an estimated 12,000 to 20,000 Irish Travelers in the United States, mostly in South Carolina and Texas. This is where it is believed Gorman and her family is from.

Travelers live a nomadic lifestyle, moving from town to town in large groups to do seasonal work but they've also been labeled, by some, as scam artists. Most Irish Travelers in this country are descendents of 19th century Irish immigrants. They are also known as Irish gypsies or "tinkers".

Traveler expert

Elkhart resident Don Wright has been investigating the Travelers for 24 years. He's published books including one called 'Scam!'. Wright says many of these scams take place in our own backyard. Between April and October, there are between 15 to 20 families in the Michiana area running these scams. When Wright saw the Kohl's parking lot assault video, he knew this was more than just a case of child abuse.

After seeing the video, Traveler expert Don Wright says he called police and other Travelers and came to this conclusion. "I started making calls right away and found out, yes indeed, they were Irish Travelers."

Reasons behind the beating

Wright believes the beating happened for one of two reasons. "The little girl gave away the scam to an employee or the mom was so ticked off at not getting refunds she took it out on the little girl. As far as beating a kid like this, I've never heard of it."

Wright has heard of Travelers working in the Michiana area. He says certain things in the video lend him to believe these women are Travelers. "The fact that the license plate was from Texas - I knew who they were."

Why do they travel here?

Wright wrote about Travelers who travel from Fort Worth, Texas to Indiana in his 1996 book called 'Scam!' "A majority of the Travelers come to Elkhart a few times a year to pick up travel trailers they use for different scams." Wright says the trailer is a scam in and of itself. They live in it until they can sell it for an exorbitant price. Meanwhile, men of the Travelers do house scams and the women do shoplifting scams. Wright says it is common to take along their children. "This is on the job training for kids. They learn to shoplift at their mothers elbows."

Prosecutor Chris Toth said today that the reason Kohl's began to follow these two women and their daughters was because they had scammed the store before. Police in Fort Worth say in March they arrested Madelyn Gorman for an alleged theft at Kohls.

[Howlin]

We were right! Tada!

[RnMomof7]

I am ashamed to say my husbands family is related to honey Fitz...so they are shirt tail relatives .......notice how I seperated from my husband of many years when I discuss him being related to the Kennedys:>)..

My grandma and some of my husbands family are from County cork (do not know where the maternal line is from??)

The Irish are good folks by and large.. I am glad to have a bit of the ole sod in my line:>)

[AnAmericanMother]

It's a "lap stone" - the cobbler's tool. Other than that, the song is as I learned it years ago.

Murder ballads like "The House Carpenter", "The Twa Brithers", and "Oxford City", as well as bawdry like "The Little Ball of Yarn" and "Ten Nights Drunk" are sung by the tinkers but also by house-people. They also sing songs in the Gaelic, esp. love ballads like "The Red-Haired Man's Wife".

The only other songs I know about tinkers are "Robin Hood and the Tinker" - a very old (and very long) song, and "The Jolly Tinker", but that's exceedingly bawdy and not fit to repeat (until we've all had a coupla beers).

[bvw]

When I heard it long ago on the "Lark in the Morning" field collection album I thought it sounded like "rubstone" -- actually "me rubstone keeps baiting away", meaning a sharpening stone biteing into a metal blade to sharpen it.

[Hila]

On the news tonight the aggressive mother admited on camera that she is an Irish Traveler. Also, the anchor said that the little girl in the hands of Children's Protective Services because they would not trust her relatives.

[Rocky Top Girl]

Quote [Watch - it's going to be played out as "you just don't understand our culture, this is how we do things..."]

Hi there TN Bob,

It's already begun. That's why she called herself an Irish Traveler, by the advice of her liar, er... lawyer, no doubt. Next will come the culture babble.

Oh how I loathe defense lawyers!


~Rocky Top Girl
East TN

[AnAmericanMother]

A lapstone is put across the cobbler's apron to provide a backing for driving pegs into the sole. Here's a source -- George MacDonald's story "The Carasoyn", Ch. IX "The Goblin Cobbler"

"They looked rather little men, though not at all of fairy-size. The most remarkable thing about them was, that at any given moment they were all doing precisely the same thing, as if they had been a piece of machinery. When one drew the threads in stitching, they all did the same. If Colin saw one wax his thread, and looked up, he saw that they were all waxing their thread. If one took to hammering on his lapstone, they did not follow his example, but all together with him they caught up their lapstones and fell to hammering away, as if nothing but hammering could ever be demanded of them."

There's also a scene in a biography of Arthur Conan Doyle where his medical professor Dr. Bell (the original of Sherlock Holmes) deduces that a man is a cobbler from the mark on his corduroy breeches where the lapstone rests.

"Bating" is Scots or Irish for "beating", which is what you do on a lapstone. Although "Dick Darby" is frequently identified as an Irish ballad, I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be Scots in origin. It has the sort of dourness I associate with a certain type of Scotsman.

Private information: my great grandfather was a Scottish shoemaker (a step up from a cobbler, I am told, which is what my great-great-grandfather was).

[Devil_Anse]

"you just don't understand our culture, this is how we do things"

I think you're right. Sounds like there will be a "diversity defense." We have so many hyphenated Americans...now we've got to come up with the proper hyphenated name for Madelyne and her "cultural milieu." How about, "Thieving-Americans"?

[frmrda]

I must say, I have never heard of these folks and I'm utterly fascinated by this whole subculture.

One question I have is why these people are driving around such fancy cars? How does that help in the con?

[Eridanus]

I have to admit, when I first heard the comment "Irish Traveler" on the radio the other day, I cracked up. The notion seems so outrageous that there are still gypsy - like folk in America. Like in the beginning of an article I read, the whole concept of it is 'from another time, another continent.'
This is what is interesting to many people who had never heard of the travelers. It is almost a romantic concept, in a way.
What most people don't realize is that their are many other groups of oddballs in the country that seem impossible. In northern NJ, in the mountains live the mysterious "Van Dunk" clan. Ask any regional person and they will act revolted at that name. A derogatory name of these people is the Jackson Whites. Centuries of inbreeding have led to giant blue eyes, albinism and other genetic defects. Their are thousands and you have to get really into the mountains on the loneliest back dirt roads to find their communities of huts without running water or power. And this is only 40 minutes away from one of the biggest cities in the world, NY!
In NY itself, or rather underneath NY lie entire communities of thousands of 'mole people' who live in the depths of abandoned subway tunnels and have learned to hate the 'surface dwellers' whom they have never seen, for they have never seen the sun. Read "The Mole People" by Jennifer Toth for an academic study of those people.
Their are a lot of bizarre folks like the travelers that most people know nothing about. I thought I knew all about the weird subgroups of people in America, but then I heard of the travelers. Just shows, you learn something new every day!

[TamiPie]

An rather unstable bunch, I'd say.

[Devil_Anse]

You're right--it's almost a romantic concept...makes for very good reading. But I wouldn't go beyond that to quell my curiosity about this fascinating group. I truly believe that any one of them could separate me from a good amount of my worldly goods with the greatest of ease--no matter how cautious I was, or how much I think I know about their ways.

These people don't want or need sympathy, and in my opinion, I really don't think they even want the presumption of innocence that is guaranteed to them under our Constitution. Whenever they are temporarily set back in their pursuit of ill-gotten gains, it seems they just want to get it over with and get back to business. Anyone who tries extra hard to be fair to them will, IMO, regret it. Here's another article, outlining only a couple of their escapades. Notice the short prison sentences.
http://www.suntimes.com/output/roeper/cst-nws-roep24.html

[Devil_Anse]

That's a good question: why do they drive those fancy cars? For that matter, why do so many of them have fancy $500,000+ homes up in Murphy's Village, SC, when they apparently spend little or no time in the homes?

I don't think the cars are part of the scam. I think they just buy the best--or flashiest--because they have a taste for such things. If you or I separated a few sick old ladies from their life savings each year, you or I might also take an "easy come, easy go" attitude, and just buy the most expensive car on the lot, just for the hell of it!

[BHud]

You mean the part where she grabbed the pony tail, and shook it back and forth.....you thought that was some kinda special award????

[BHud]

Perhaps her mother beating her IS regular business?

[dennisw]

Thanks!

[Devil_Anse]

After not following the story for a couple days, now I see Johnny Toogood, Madelyne's husband--his mugshot on TV, and a touching pic of him comforting Madelyne.

The reporter said there were some warrants for Johnny in Montana--something about elder abuse and a roofing scam. Then the reporter editorialized a little bit, saying, "remember, this is the man whose wife said he had a business license, etc." What? Don't tell me there were people actually believing this woman's husband had some sort of legitimate contracting business?? LOLOL!!!

At lucianne.com a couple days ago, she commented something to the effect of, "don't know exactly what the angle is on Madelyne Toogood apparently actually seeking out appearances on these interview shows, but you can bet something's up, we'll see..." She's right. Usually this group seems to shun the limelight. The fact that Madelyne isn't doing that seems to indicate that she (and Rocket Rosen) are contemplating some sort of lawsuit--or maybe Madelyne is enjoying a few appearance fees? If it's just the appearance fees, I'd bet that was the first honest money the woman has ever earned! (I guess if Hollywood people can gain attention and talkshow slots by getting caught with drugs over and over, why not let some child-beating woman do the same?)

Know any elderly people who "don't trust banks" and keep money in a coffee can or something? Now would be the time to again try to persuade them to get a safety deposit box. Thanks, Madelyne, for raising the public's awareness of people who love to target elderly, sick people.

[Devil_Anse]

P.S. Of course, a good scammer can get the person to get the money out of the safety deposit box or bank account, almost as easily as they can sneak in and empty the coffee can. Elderly people are stubborn about their independence; maybe the chance of losing the money to scammers/thieves is a price they are willing to pay for their treasured independence. But it does seem a shame when they get victimized.

[DreamWeaver]

They are very mobile and they change their identity (probably fake from the start) very quickly.

Very true, in addition, they ALL protect each other and they ALL will hide each other from the authorities. They also have a lot of "same names" in each clan which makes it more difficult to get to the perpetrator. Such as 50 "Mike O'Malleys, 30 Dan O'Gradies etc..

[Devil_Anse]

That's interesting, about so many of them using the same names.

Here's an article about Johnny Toogood--or whatever his name is--who is Madelyne's husband.

http://www.southbendtribune.com/stories/2002/09/25/local.20020925-sbt-MARS-A7-Reports_allege.sto

These people--probably hundreds of them--scam their way around the country, year after year. They avoid having too much heat after them b/c property (not person) crimes seem to dominate their modus operandi. Police don't get all hepped up about extraditing people on things like theft charges, etc. Bond is lower on property crimes--lower, so easier to jump/forfeit.

And then...big laughs ahead...THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN RESOURCES is what might bring a bunch of them down??? One of the laziest, most bloated, most inefficient agencies in (pick a state, any state)?? God definitely has a sense of humor!

It must have taken some serious short-hairs twisting by Madelyne to get her husband to even show up in that court for the custody hearing on the little girl. So that's how you get to these unbelievably canny criminals--just take one of their kids. Brutal--but effective. (More irony: gypsies, a group with definite links to "Irish Travellers", are thought in folklore to "steal children." Now DHR, the monarchs of the child-snatchers, has snatched one of theirs!)