What is American Corporatism (or no, the Welfare state is not socialist)

Frontpage Magazine ^ | 9/13/2002 | Robert Locke

[tpaine]

In contrast, over here in the U.S., we've got whiners who use the government-led Internet to make their posts on FR, yet bash any and all government involvement no matter how trivial (and compared to Europe, government involvement over here IS trivial). 18

Good grief! The hyperbole is sure getting deep in here today.

[AdamSelene235]

I don't 'get' your objections, guys. What exactly do you see as the authors agenda?

I believe we are both rabid free market advocates who wish to curtail the government's role in micromanaging the economy.

I kinda like the author.

[AdamSelene235]

The U.S. has predominantly free markets. Software. Hardware.

You had to choose carefully, didn't you? Emerging technologies often attract top talent *because* of the lack of government interference.

This is why more engineers are interested in working on semiconductors than on making our nation energy independent. Despite the intellectual challenges of power generation, no talented engineer seeks out that line of employment..

Firearms.

I see, so I can import any old AK I want, right?

Used cars. New cars.

Oh, yeah. The government has never interfered with the auto market. How about the steel in those cars?

Private aircraft.

Groan...Why does Cessna insist on using outdated engine technology? Something to do with the high cost of FAA approval, right?

Over in Europe, the government limits stores to only two "Sales" events per year, and retail prices are regulated (discounts are an actual crime). Little complaints are heard from the EUros for such nonsense, of course.

Europe is a collapsing civilization. We need not look to them for ideas. But we do.

In contrast, over here in the U.S., we've got whiners who use the government-led Internet to make their posts on FR, yet bash any and all government involvement no matter how trivial (and compared to Europe, government involvement over here IS trivial).

Puh-lease...The tech transfer out of DARPA,NASA, the DOE,DOC, the national labs, etc. is abysmal..I've worked with all of the above, and you would be astonished at the waste and calculated misrepresentations they spin to the public/congress. Livermore's laser fusion project springs to mind.

I don't understand why you are such a vigorous defender the Socialist infrastructure of this country.

The squandered time and opportunity costs of the current system are simply unforgivable.

We have to cut these folks off at the knees. If 10% taxation is good enough for Hong Kong, we should be able to do 5%. Regulation should be curtailed to major externalities and nothing else.

Where's your sense of adventure, man?

[headsonpikes]

In my view, the author's analysis is essentially correct.

I part with him when he says,"I consider it highly unlikely that corporatism can be overthrown."

Maybe I should have compared him to Orwell's 'Goldstein' instead of Burnham. ;^)

Like the other socialisms, 'Corporatism', if we should call it that, can survive only for the time it takes to squander the economic, political, and social capital accumulated by preceding generations.

Whether this end comes wildly and unpredictably, or deliberately and rationally, depends somewhat on the resolve of the Republican Party to restore Constitutional government.

All IMHO.

[tpaine]

Me too, -- I thought it was an excellent article, and found little in it to disagree about.

[tpaine]

Well lets ~hope~ he's overly pragmatic when he says,"I consider it highly unlikely that corporatism can be overthrown."

But as you note:
"Whether this end comes wildly and unpredictably, or deliberately and rationally, depends somewhat on the resolve of the Republican Party to restore Constitutional government."

Being a cynicial pragmatist meself, I see no such 'republican resolve'.

[headsonpikes]

The Cynical Pragmatists are as low in the polls as the Libertarians. ;^)

[JohnGalt]

Paleo-libertarian bump.

[tpaine]

You wanna see how low I am?

Go to O_P_H's thread about 'Names'. LOL-low

[Southack]

The U.S. has predominantly free markets. Software. Hardware. -Southack

"You had to choose carefully, didn't you?" - AdamSelene235

No, and I stand by what I said. Contrary to your rant, our markets are reasonably free. Americans can buy, sell, trade, negotiate, and deal without European, Asian, African, or South American levels of interference in our commerce.

Nor am I defending the great Socialist experiment. However, government does have its place. In contrast, Libertarians want their Revolution today. They want all of government to be rolled back immediately, and their lack of support for incremental change is what 1. prevents them from ever getting anything done and 2. limits their ideological appeal to only those in society who are receptive to revolutionary methods (e.g. those on the fringe of society, plus various college students, etc.).

Could the U.S. government operate on a 10% overall income or sales tax? Sure. Will it happen in one step? No.

The first thing that will have to happen before such radical changes are even contemplated on an incremental basis is for the public to see first or second hand all of the waste, stupidity, and nonsense that passes for daily activity in government. If you libertarians could do one beneficial thing for the U.S., then I would suggest that it would be to convince Hollywood and NY to broadcast daily investigative shows in which grunt and meduim-level government bureaucrats were followed, filmed, and ridiculed.

I'll even give you an easy example. Away from the mega-metropolises, public transportation doesn't have the population density to ever work. So you've got buses running around Birmingham that might have one rider on them at a time.

Go forth. Film it. Commentate on it. Show the budget and the subsidies for it. Film the bureaucrats meeting to run the bus system. Show that there are more bureaucrats than riders.

Ahhh, but there's the rub. Those of you who claim to want the Revolution don't want to do any of the work to bring it about. You can sure talk and post a lot, but you aren't going to take any real action (because after all, you don't Really want the revolution anymore than anyone else).

Frankly, I don't care if government shuts down tomorrow (so long as national defense isn't compromised, at least). I can survive and thrive without government holding my hand.

On the other hand, I don't might using the Internet that our own government started (hence the original name DARPAnet). I don't mind bragging about NASA putting a man on the Moon. I enjoy knowing that we invented the means of our own defense (including the atomic bomb), and it doesn't bother me that our government brought that about. I like knowing that our society is protected by our government via the most powerful military to have ever been fielded in all of history. I like driving on public roads rather than negotiating tolls with hundreds of different private owners.

That's not to say that the private sector can't do more, better, for less cost, faster, and with better quality, but I do give credit where it is due.

And after giving due credit, I'm much less in favor of the anti-government or government-pare-down revolution that you seem to favor. But considering that you aren't out filming government waste in an honest effort to bring about the public attitude change that would be required for any grass-roots revolution to take root, I have to conclude that you're just "all talk" about what you really "want". Whether you admit it or not, your actions say that you enjoy all of your government benefits, too.

[AdamSelene235]

Ahhh, but there's the rub. Those of you who claim to want the Revolution don't want to do any of the work to bring it about. You can sure talk and post a lot, but you aren't going to take any real action (because after all, you don't Really want the revolution anymore than anyone else).

Actually, I'm quite politically active. I *do* spend several hours a week organizing pro-freedom lectures, writing editors, staging protests, etc. I volunteer my time for other non-political causes as well. I'd do more, but I've got taxes to pay. Again, opportunity cost.

On the other hand, I don't might using the Internet that our own government started (hence the original name DARPAnet). I don't mind bragging about NASA putting a man on the Moon. I enjoy knowing that we invented the means of our own defense (including the atomic bomb), and it doesn't bother me that our government brought that about. I like knowing that our society is protected by our government via the most powerful military to have ever been fielded in all of history. I like driving on public roads rather than negotiating tolls with hundreds of different private owners.

I don't know you very well, but developing high end tech for the government is profoundly frustrating (and in many areas the feds are the only game in town. I'd rather have my money back and let science be privately directed. The current approach to science & tech is wasteful and full of moral hazards. When I watch the feds pour millions into a technology only to have the technology blocked by another federal agency such that the researchers have to sell the technology to the Chinese or Japanese just to bring it to market, it makes me want to scream. I'm tired of working my butt off in the laboratory just to have the Feds flush the work down the drain at the end.

But considering that you aren't out filming government waste

Actually, I have shot footage of such things.

I have to conclude that you're just "all talk" about what you really "want". Whether you admit it or not, your actions say that you enjoy all of your government benefits, too.

Have you been following me around or something? How do you know all these things for sure?

[LS]

Adam, Adam. You get more on the fringe with every post. Why is are U.S. expenditures 2X that of a police state? You KNOW the answer to that. Police states TAKE what they need---they don't need to ask for it, and they don't account for it on normal books. We learned that from the Russkies, who kept two sets of books as EVERY good communist state does. It's a tissue of lies.

You might look at the Milken Institute web site. They have some excellent papers on how China fosters a trade "zone" that permits some freedom so as to suck the money from it to repress the vast majority of the people. Lenin even tried that in Russia, and, of course, it failed.

[secretagent]

...government selectively lifts the burden of taxation and regulation on certain projects to push them into the black. It does this with tax abatements, loan guarantees, zoning changes, condemnations, outright subsidies, tax-exempt bond issues, exemption from regulations, and selective public infrastructure investments. As a result, only projects with political support can happen, and every skyscraper is a monument to the political deals that enabled it to get built.

Restrict and exempt, tax and subsidize.

Pressure and release, like milking a cow.

[weikel]

Hoover had a hand in the great depression he was not the Coolidge(probably the last true hardcore conservative President America had) conservative that people are taught he was.

[meyer]

Yep, we're free market capitalists alright. Well, except for our housing market. Oh, and the financial system. Oh and agriculture,education,scientific research,transportation,medicine,Social Security and basically anything else that matters.

Most of which were considerably "free-er" prior to the 1930's when they were hijacked by the federal government. Many claim that federal intervention pulled the US out of the depression in the late '30's, but that is highly debatable. For one thing, that was a time of great buildup prior to our entering WW-II.

As well, there is really no way to compare what happened to what would have happened had FDR not done what he did. Basically, any experiment needs a "control" group; a population in which the action being tested wasn't performed in order to form a comparison. There was no such control group in the '30's. The whole country was essentially dumped into a semi-socialistic position by fiat. So how can one say that we are better off (or were better off at the time) directly as a result of FDR's socialistic actions when there's nothing to compare to?

[inquest]

Good point. I should have mentioned him, too, but I was trying to keep it concise. My favorite thing is how Roosevelt himself acknowledged the destructive effect that Hoover's big-government policies were having on the econonmy, during the '32 election campaign, with his whole rant about how "This is an administration which has piled bureau on top of bureau, commission on top of commission...."

[inquest]

The whole country was essentially dumped into a semi-socialistic position by fiat. So how can one say that we are better off (or were better off at the time) directly as a result of FDR's socialistic actions when there's nothing to compare to?

We had earlier times to compare it to. When there was a slump for whatever reason, people still traded with each other, investors (after getting over the shock) started investing again, life went on. But when Roosevelt (and, as weikel aptly points out, Hoover before him) began raising taxes, spreading debt, competing with private businesses (with taxpayer money, of course), and throwing all kinds of irrational regulation at them, it doesn't take a postgraduate education to see what kind of effect this has on the mood of investors to invest.

[rdb3]

What's surprising to me in this is that you are posting something from a "neocon" site like FrontPageMag.

Oh, my.

I only thought people who weren't "truly" conservative like myself set their homepage to FrontPageMag.com and actually read it and enjoy it.

Very interesting.

[traditionalist]

Frontpage Magazine publishes pieces accross the whole specturm of the conservative movement. It include Pleocons like Locke and Zmirak, neocons like Weinkopf and Glazov, and lots people who, like Horowitz himslef, fit into neither camp. FYI Horowitz rejects the neocon label, and Frontpage frequently features artiles calling for an immigration reduction.

It is a very pro-Israel site, but you don't have to be a neocon to be pro-Israel. Zmirak is actually not pro-Israel, but he expresses his opinions on this subject elsewhere.

[traditionalist]

The whole country was essentially dumped into a semi-socialistic position by fiat.

Corporatism, not socialism. People throw around the latter term too loosely. We need to be precise about what we're fighting.