Special Ops boarding ship to search for Nuclear Material off the NJ shore

Fox News Alert | 9/12/02 | Brytani

[Brytani]

Fox News just broke in with an alert. Special Op's are now searching a Liberian flagged ship 8 miles off the coast of NJ looking for nuclear material. More information to follow.

[henbane]

It is a fact the ship carried nuclear material that was "hot" . Period. The question now is WHAT KIND and HOW MUCH and WHERE IS IT NOW and WHO are the players in all directions. . . . The big question is where the stuff is now. What were the ships stops , port of call, AFTER the Straits of Malacca and the various Muslim and Muslim/Balkan stops?

Here's two tables from Mitchell, who did a fantastic search job last night as this topic unfolded.

A close look at yesterday's thread is strongly recommended.

Liberian Ship Held 6 Miles off Coast of Manhattan

---

[from Mitchell]

Before it disappears from the web, I thought I would document the itinerary of the Palermo Senator's current trip, obtained from the Senator Lines schedule web page.

Note that it appears to be running a day late. (Arrival in New York was scheduled for Sept. 10, 2002, 4:18 a.m. I don't know if the trip just took a day longer than expected, or if the Coast Guard stopped the ship yesterday.)

Current/Nearest Status : PALERMO SENATOR 0948

Port	Arrival time	Berthing Time	Cut-Off Time	Departure Time
NEW YORK,NY	10SEP02 04:18	10SEP02 08:00	09SEP02 19:00	11SEP02 22:00

Full Schedule

Port	Arrival time	Berthing Time	Cut-Off Time	Departure Time
PUSAN	29JUL02 23:00	30JUL02 05:00	29JUL02 04:00	31JUL02 04:00
SHANGHAI	01AUG02 09:00	01AUG02 16:54	31JUL02 09:00	02AUG02 15:30
HONG KONG	04AUG02 22:00	04AUG02 23:00	03AUG02 18:00	06AUG02 01:00
SINGAPORE	09AUG02 13:00	09AUG02 14:15	08AUG02 09:00	10AUG02 03:45
PORT KLANG	10AUG02 15:30	10AUG02 17:18	09AUG02 20:00	11AUG02 05:15
SUEZ (EL SUWEIS)	22AUG02 02:40	22AUG02 10:05	21AUG02 13:00	22AUG02 20:05
GIOIA TAURO	25AUG02 01:12	25AUG02 02:24	24AUG02 13:00	25AUG02 18:50
LA SPEZIA	26AUG02 23:18	27AUG02 00:35	26AUG02 19:00	28AUG02 09:36
FOS SUR MER	29AUG02 05:30	29AUG02 04:00	29AUG02 01:00	29AUG02 20:00
VALENCIA	31AUG02 05:48	31AUG02 06:30	30AUG02 20:00	01SEP02 04:30
NEW YORK,NY	10SEP02 04:18	10SEP02 08:00	09SEP02 19:00	11SEP02 22:00
NORFOLK,VA	12SEP02 15:00	12SEP02 18:00	11SEP02 20:00	13SEP02 08:00
SAVANNAH,GA	14SEP02 15:00	14SEP02 18:00	14SEP02 01:00	15SEP02 06:00
VALENCIA	25SEP02 19:00	25SEP02 20:00	25SEP02 08:00	27SEP02 02:00
LA SPEZIA	28SEP02 12:00	28SEP02 13:00	28SEP02 01:00	29SEP02 19:00
GIOIA TAURO	01OCT02 02:00	01OCT02 04:00	30SEP02 16:00	02OCT02 01:00
SUEZ (EL SUWEIS)	04OCT02 19:00	04OCT02 19:00	04OCT02 07:00	05OCT02 18:00
JEDDAH	07OCT02 04:00	07OCT02 06:00	06OCT02 18:00	08OCT02 08:00
KHOR FAKKAN	13OCT02 06:00	13OCT02 07:00	12OCT02 19:00	14OCT02 05:00
SINGAPORE	22OCT02 05:00	22OCT02 06:00	21OCT02 18:00	22OCT02 19:00
PUSAN	28OCT02 15:00	28OCT02 16:00	28OCT02 04:00	29OCT02 12:00
SHANGHAI	30OCT02 17:00	30OCT02 21:00	30OCT02 09:00	01NOV02 00:00
HONG KONG	03NOV02 05:00	03NOV02 06:00	02NOV02 18:00	04NOV02 10:00

  

27 posted on 9/11/02 1:55 PM Eastern by Mitchell
To: Mitchell

Here's the schedule of the Palermo Senator's previous trip, which shows when it was last in Jeddah, for instance:

Full Schedule : PALERMO SENATOR 0947

Port	Arrival time	Berthing Time	Cut-Off Time	Departure Time
PUSAN	29APR02 12:00	29APR02 12:45		30APR02 09:00
SHANGHAI	01MAY02 23:18	02MAY02 06:12		02MAY02 22:30
HONG KONG	05MAY02 14:00	05MAY02 14:36		06MAY02 16:15
SINGAPORE	09MAY02 22:00	09MAY02 23:00		10MAY02 15:55
PORT KLANG	11MAY02 04:54	11MAY02 06:18		11MAY02 16:30
SUEZ (EL SUWEIS)	22MAY02 20:12	23MAY02 09:45	22MAY02 13:00	23MAY02 19:50
GIOIA TAURO	25MAY02 23:24	26MAY02 00:42	25MAY02 13:00	26MAY02 15:50
LA SPEZIA	27MAY02 19:06	28MAY02 00:42	27MAY02 19:00	30MAY02 04:00
FOS SUR MER	30MAY02 17:42	30MAY02 18:54	30MAY02 01:00	31MAY02 04:20
VALENCIA	01JUN02 01:30	01JUN02 11:30	31MAY02 20:00	02JUN02 12:15
NEW YORK,NY	11JUN02 04:06	11JUN02 07:18	10JUN02 19:00	12JUN02 11:07
NORFOLK,VA	13JUN02 03:48	13JUN02 06:30	12JUN02 20:00	14JUN02 03:10
SAVANNAH,GA	15JUN02 09:00	15JUN02 13:18	15JUN02 01:00	16JUN02 01:10
VALENCIA	26JUN02 10:00	27JUN02 00:12	26JUN02 08:00	28JUN02 04:00
LA SPEZIA	29JUN02 13:12	01JUL02 21:12	29JUN02 01:00	03JUL02 06:54
GIOIA TAURO	04JUL02 07:43	04JUL02 09:42	01JUL02 16:00	05JUL02 03:20
SUEZ (EL SUWEIS)	07JUL02 19:00	07JUL02 19:00	05JUL02 07:00	08JUL02 18:00
JEDDAH	10JUL02 03:00	10JUL02 03:48	07JUL02 18:00	10JUL02 19:00
KHOR FAKKAN	15JUL02 12:00	15JUL02 12:54	13JUL02 19:00	16JUL02 04:15
SINGAPORE	23JUL02 20:10	23JUL02 21:10	22JUL02 18:00	24JUL02 12:25
PUSAN	29JUL02 23:00	30JUL02 05:00	29JUL02 04:00	31JUL02 04:00
SHANGHAI	01AUG02 09:00	01AUG02 16:54	31JUL02 09:00	02AUG02 15:30
HONG KONG	04AUG02 22:00	04AUG02 23:00	03AUG02 18:00	06AUG02 01:00

  

[Deguello]

"Does anyone know if airspace over the area where the ship is had been restricted?"

Only for TWA flights.

[Black Agnes]

Sick, very sick. Seek help, now! (*cackles behind her hand*).

[aristeides]

Auferstanden aus Ruinen, und der Zukunft zugewandt, lass uns dir zum Guten dienen, Deutschland, einig Vaterland!

Don't you like the glorious lyrics of Johannes Becher, poet laureate of the German Democratic Republic?

Ah, that brings back memories. My job with the Air Force in Berlin required me to hear the strains of that anthem more or less every day, as I recall.

Becher, by the way, figures rather prominently in the biography of Harry Graf Kessler that I happen to be reading at the moment, The Red Count. Kessler, it seems, was a great fan of Becher's early verse at the time of the First World War. Even if Kessler helped to inspire one of the most glorious operas, Der Rosenkavalier, his taste was not always reliable.

[Brytani]

How many of them pop positive for radiation?

[ccmay]

A Neutron detector, not a standard Geiger counter was what was tripped!

Holy s**t. That is orders of magnitude more worrisome. This is not just some spilled medical waste that didn't get cleaned up. Neutron emission is the sine qua non of nuclear fission reactors and bombs.

-ccm

[Squantos]

A: Hide it in a shipment of cocaine......or in a suitcase full of some demorcrats foreign contribution money :o)

Stay Safe EOD is on the scene !!!

[Squantos]

It's the other way round dog. DOE Brainiacs "assist" the EOD teams if they have a question...........if ever ,while they render safe the IND if one is present at all.

Stay Safe !

[SamAdams76]

I remember from the cold war days that a nuke on a medium sized city would fill every hospital bed in the country with casualties. It would have the effect on our economy and way of life that WWII did on Europe. All in an instant.

That is a good point. Consider the enormous effect 9/11 had on our economy (even to this day). With a single nuke, you can multiply that effect x100.

We cannot afford even one act of nuclear terrorism. This is why we must stop it at all costs, up to and including a lockdown and military takeover of the entire Middle East.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

You must not have tried Blue Pepsi yet.

My son says it looks and tastes like 2000 Flushes.

[reformedliberal]

Of course, we have no idea, do we? I guess the point is: these containers go all over the country, every day.

[EternalHope]

MSNBC: "There, tests by Energy Department inspectors produced contradictory results, with one showing elevated radiation levels and another indicating normal levels. As a result, the ship was ordered back to sea for a definitive determination on whether any radioactive material was on board."

This seems to be easy to understand. A logical person would start with the assumption that two identical detectors gave different results. If so, the result is ambiguous until you determine which detector was malfunctioning. A false positive is less likely than a false negative, but it could go either way.

However there are different "flavors" of radiation. Detectors designed to detect neutrons are different than those designed to detect more common kinds of radiation such as beta and alpha emissions.

Since two detection methods are needed, it could mean neutron and gamma emissions were detected (detection method A), but no other kind of radiation (detection method B).

The story does not give the reason for the discrepancy. By the time the info got passed to an official spokesman, and then interpreted by a reporter, who knows what had been lost or garbled.

A dirty bomb could emit just about anything, depending on what was used to make it radioactive. A nuke, however, would emit neutrons but very little alpha or beta. Hence, a confirmed neutron emitter with no alpha or beta would get a lot of attention. But the spokesman and/or reporter might not know enough to understand the results.

Bottom line is that we simply do not have enough information to know what is going on. My bet is that they won't tell us anytime soon, either.

[ccmay]

the "noises" the Coast Guard heard may simply have been used as a pretext for a search

I don't think so. They would never have let the vessel into the harbor if they had such intel. Out at sea the Coast Guard (and SEALs if necessary) can board and search any ship they want for any reason or no reason.

-ccm

[EternalHope]

I remember from the cold war days that a nuke on a medium sized city would fill every hospital bed in the country with casualties.

Depends on the size of the nuke.

The ones Pakistan has are in the WWII range, much smaller than needed to do the damage you describe (but still very bad news).

The suitcase nukes the Russians reportedly lost are much smaller than the Paki version. They would supposedly destroy everything in a three block radius (with collateral damage out much further).

[mewzilla]

Look what the next port of call after NYC was...

[EternalHope]

Neutron emission is the sine qua non of nuclear fission reactors and bombs.

Yup. If something on this ship was really emitting neutrons, then this is the biggest story since 9-11-01.

I have a few questions:
1. Was something on the ship REALLY emitting neutrons? There have been reports that the emissions were "ambiguous" (which could mean a lot of things).
2. If something was emitting, has it stopped? There are some reports that it has. Since you can't turn off neutron emissions, does that mean it is no longer on the ship?
3. What was the suspicious noise from the ship's hold? The source was never found.
4. The scariest (tinfoil alert!): Did the bad guys somehow get a nuke off the ship?

There are reports that Al Qaida has used false bottoms on ships in the past. Once in port, the bottom is opened on the outside of the ship and the contraband is taken out by diver. No one on the surface knows. Can we be tricked this easily?

[Centurion2000]

Look what the next port of call after NYC was...

Crap .... a nuke there could cripple that Naval base and take out some serious power projection assets. Good call.

[Cachelot]

Is it blasphemous to suggest that Clinton would assist terrorists in smuggling a nuke into the country if he thought it would increase his stature or wealth in some way?

No. In that case, Clinton would assemble the device himself. With his teeth, if he had to.

[strela]

I'm pretty conventional when it comes to my soda choices. And, you're right - Blue Pepsi was not one of them. That Crystal Pepsi swill pretty much turned me off the concept of being adventurous in that regard.

[EternalHope]

I work with emitters. They are hard as hell to conceal and leave tracks from here to eternity.

Nuclear bombs, at least ours, do not emit much of anything (been there, done that). They would not make their surroundings radioactive unless they were left in one place for a very long time.

Crude nukes, or dirty bombs, might be a different story. However, even these could be shielded. It seems likely that anyone that could make 'em could also figure out how to make 'em hard to detect. Shielding would be the easy part.

'Course, one of our advantages is that so many of the bad guys aren't exactly the sharpest knives in the drawer...