Pope Asks God to Show Mercy on Sept. 11 Attackers

Reuters via iWon.com ^ | Sept 11, 2002 | Philip Pullella

[SoothingDave]

Catholics believe that you go to Purgatory when you die, not directly to Heaven or Hell.

Not true. One can go directly to Heaven or Hell. But no one who is damned gets saved, no matter how many people pray for them. And everybody in Purgatory is destined for Heaven.

SD

[agrace]

Much thanks to you too. :) Have a good night!

[RnMomof7]

but asked for prayers that God would show mercy and forgiveness for the attackers.
I thought forgiveness was only for those who repented of their ways.

Without repentance there is no forgiveness of sin...this is feel good unbiblical nonesense....they are already burning in hell.. to late to worry about it now..to be absent from the body is to be present to God

[RnMomof7]

"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

The Greek word translated "forgive " in the KJV actually means "allow "..Jesus was not pleading their case..(he had not yet died for the sins of man)...He was submitting completely to the will of His Father and making the Fathers will his own..." Father let them do it now!" ...The men would have to repent for themselves..just as all of us do!

[HiTech RedNeck]

Your interpretation is unique among all major English translations of the Bible. Not a one renders it "Father, allow (or permit, etc.) them, for they know not what they do." Certainly not the King James.

[jude24]

Mom, the first rule I learned when I started to learn Greek was this: Always assume 2000 years of Christian theology is right, and you are wrong. This is one of those cases where you know enough Greek to be dangerous.

Otherwise, we need to change a lot of verses. How 'bout the Lord's Prayer?

Matthew 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

Or this?

Matthew 9:2 And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven."

Or this?

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The Greek word translated forgiven in the above verses is aphiemi. Yes, it can sometimes be translated "leave" or "allow," and indeed sometimes is (cf. Mat 3:15, translated "suffer: un the KJV, "Permit" in the NAS95 version I prefer). But context sometimes dictates a particular translation. I have about 10 translations on my computer, and not a one says "allow" there. Just be careful -- or you could shake the very foundations of our salvation.

[jude24]

See my 366.

[HiTech RedNeck]

Ergo, they're in the hell they so richly deserve, and I for one am GLAD.

So is Satan, because he has managed to dump yet another set of works made in God's image into the eternal incinerator. Be careful what team you are cheering along with. It may not always be the one you think.

[PhilDragoo]

What an obscenity. Of what mortal use is this crap?

This dude has state of the art security 24/7--the only way he can keep breathing to utter such bullsh!t.

Hey!

Your sheep are being slaughtered by these wolves!

This is no shepherd.

[tomahawk]

I didn't say the Pope said that, I said the Vatican, and the Vatican foreign minister did say that last week. It was a Reuters article posted on FR.

[RnMomof7]

Can a man be forgiven with out repentance? (remember that the atonment had not yet been accomplished...). Can one man repent for another? Why did Jesus not arrange forgiveness for the other thief?

863 aphiemi {af-ee'-ay-mee}

from 575 and hiemi (to send, an intens. form of eimi, to go);
TDNT - 1:509,88; v

AV - leave 52, forgive 47, suffer 14, let 8, forsake 6, let alone 6,
misc 13; 146

1) to send away
1a) to bid going away or depart
1a1) of a husband divorcing his wife
1b) to send forth, yield up, to expire
1c) to let go, let alone, let be
1c1) to disregard
1c2) to leave, not to discuss now, (a topic)
1c21) of teachers, writers and speakers
1c3) to omit, neglect
1d) to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit
1e) to give up, keep no longer
2) to permit, allow, not to hinder, to give up a thing to a person
3) to leave, go way from one
3a) in order to go to another place
3b) to depart from any one
3c) to depart from one and leave him to himself so that all
mutual claims are abandoned
3d) to desert wrongfully
3e) to go away leaving something behind
3f) to leave one by not taking him as a companion
3g) to leave on dying, leave behind one
3h) to leave so that what is left may remain, leave remaining
3i) abandon, leave destitute


In Matt 3:15 it is translated "suffer", Matt 4;11 allow etc...perhaps you need to rethink it :>) It is rather like the pas discussion...

[HiTech RedNeck]

OK, I will now ride the fence :-) There could arguably be a middle view here, as "forgive" could be taken as "don't punish yet." This would be more forceful than "allow" but not the ironclad "forgive" of eternal salvation. This view would emphasize that Jesus wanted even the crowd crucifying him to have more chances to believe. (Some may well have, e.g. at Peter's sermon in Acts.)

[HiTech RedNeck]

I could easily turn your rhetoric around: can a man repent without forgiveness?

[RnMomof7]

No

[HiTech RedNeck]

Perhaps 2000 years of Roman Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox Christianity united on this particular matter needs to rethink it, you mean :>)

[Paulus Invictus]

The attackers are dead, praise the Lord! The Arab killers invoked Allah and it is Allah that they think has sent them to Paradise and will provide them their quotas of virgins. The truth, however, is terrible. There is no mercy for murderers. They are in Hell where mercy is not word heard in that hot climate. May they continue to burn eternally in Hell! (am I being extreme?)

[SwordofTruth]

The Pope has clearly lost his mind. He needs to step down.

[RnMomof7]

The issue becomes what is TRUE repentance .....we can not confuse confession or a disturbed conscience with true repentance

[HiTech RedNeck]

Martha said that she KNEW he would rise again at the last day

This was a widespread (and biblical) Jewish belief. According to the book of Daniel (Dan 12:2), "many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth" would "awake" to either "everlasting life" or else "shame and everlasting contempt." Martha also seemed to be rather slow on the uptake (such as when she bustled around with "much serving" while her sister sat and listened to Jesus) and crediting her with great insight into Christian theology is questionable. So whether Lazarus' resuscitation was a pre-believing or post-believing one (or whether Lazarus believed at all), I don't think we can make an ironclad case. It is apparently the exception to the rule as Hebrews states that it is appointed once for man to die, and then the judgment.

[HiTech RedNeck]

Who brought in this red herring? Not me.