[jude24]

Mom, the first rule I learned when I started to learn Greek was this: Always assume 2000 years of Christian theology is right, and you are wrong. This is one of those cases where you know enough Greek to be dangerous.

Otherwise, we need to change a lot of verses. How 'bout the Lord's Prayer?

Matthew 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

Or this?

Matthew 9:2 And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven."

Or this?

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The Greek word translated forgiven in the above verses is aphiemi. Yes, it can sometimes be translated "leave" or "allow," and indeed sometimes is (cf. Mat 3:15, translated "suffer: un the KJV, "Permit" in the NAS95 version I prefer). But context sometimes dictates a particular translation. I have about 10 translations on my computer, and not a one says "allow" there. Just be careful -- or you could shake the very foundations of our salvation.

[RnMomof7]

Can a man be forgiven with out repentance? (remember that the atonment had not yet been accomplished...). Can one man repent for another? Why did Jesus not arrange forgiveness for the other thief?

863 aphiemi {af-ee'-ay-mee}

from 575 and hiemi (to send, an intens. form of eimi, to go);
TDNT - 1:509,88; v

AV - leave 52, forgive 47, suffer 14, let 8, forsake 6, let alone 6,
misc 13; 146

1) to send away
1a) to bid going away or depart
1a1) of a husband divorcing his wife
1b) to send forth, yield up, to expire
1c) to let go, let alone, let be
1c1) to disregard
1c2) to leave, not to discuss now, (a topic)
1c21) of teachers, writers and speakers
1c3) to omit, neglect
1d) to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit
1e) to give up, keep no longer
2) to permit, allow, not to hinder, to give up a thing to a person
3) to leave, go way from one
3a) in order to go to another place
3b) to depart from any one
3c) to depart from one and leave him to himself so that all
mutual claims are abandoned
3d) to desert wrongfully
3e) to go away leaving something behind
3f) to leave one by not taking him as a companion
3g) to leave on dying, leave behind one
3h) to leave so that what is left may remain, leave remaining
3i) abandon, leave destitute


In Matt 3:15 it is translated "suffer", Matt 4;11 allow etc...perhaps you need to rethink it :>) It is rather like the pas discussion...

[HiTech RedNeck]

OK, I will now ride the fence :-) There could arguably be a middle view here, as "forgive" could be taken as "don't punish yet." This would be more forceful than "allow" but not the ironclad "forgive" of eternal salvation. This view would emphasize that Jesus wanted even the crowd crucifying him to have more chances to believe. (Some may well have, e.g. at Peter's sermon in Acts.)