Posted on 09/05/2002 7:57:50 PM PDT by Enemy Of The State
THOMAS JEFFERSON ON CHRISTIANITY & RELIGION
It spite of Christian right attempts to rewrite history to make Jefferson into a Christian, little about his philosophy resembles that of Christianity. Although Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence wrote of the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God, there exists nothing in the Declaration about Christianity.
Although Jefferson believed in a Creator, his concept of it resembled that of the god of deism (the term "Nature's God" used by deists of the time). With his scientific bent, Jefferson sought to organize his thoughts on religion. He rejected the superstitions and mysticism of Christianity and even went so far as to edit the gospels, removing the miracles and mysticism of Jesus (see The Jefferson Bible) leaving only what he deemed the correct moral philosophy of Jesus.
Distortions of history occur in the minds of many Christians whenever they see the word "God" embossed in statue or memorial concrete . For example, those who visit the Jefferson Memorial in Washington will read Jefferson's words engraved: "I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every from of tyranny over the mind of man." When they see the word "God" many Christians see this as "proof" of his Christianity without thinking that 'God' can have many definitions ranging from nature to supernatural. Yet how many of them realize that this passage aimed at attacking the tyranny of the Christian clergy of Philadelphia, or that Jefferson's God was not the personal god of Christianity? Those memorial words came from a letter written to Benjamin Rush in 1800 in response to Rush's warning about the Philadelphia clergy attacking Jefferson (Jefferson was seen as an infidel by his enemies during his election for President). The complete statement reads as follows:
"The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their hopes, & they [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: & enough too in their opinion, & this is the cause of their printing lying pamphlets against me. . ."
Jefferson aimed at laissez-faire liberalism in the name of individual freedom, He felt that any form of government control, not only of religion, but of individual mercantilism consisted of tyranny. He thought that our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry.
If anything can clear of the misconceptions of Jeffersonian history, it can come best from the author himself. Although Jefferson had a complex view of religion, too vast for this article, the following quotes provide a glimpse of how Thomas Jefferson viewed the corruptions of Christianity and religion.
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782.
But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782.
What is it men cannot be made to believe!
-Thomas Jefferson to Richard Henry Lee, April 22, 1786. (on the British regarding America, but quoted here for its universal appeal.)
Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787
Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.
-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom
I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")
I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789
They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.
-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802
History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.
The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814
Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814
If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814
You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, June 25, 1819
As you say of yourslef, I too am an Epicurian. I consider the genuine (not the imputed) doctrines of Epicurus as containing everything rational in moral philosophy which Greece and Rome have left us.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, Oct. 31, 1819
Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820
To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But heresy it certainly is.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, Aug. 15, 1820
Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind.
-Thomas Jefferson to James Smith, 1822.
I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. He was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Daemonism. If ever man worshipped a false god, he did.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823
And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823
It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it [the Apocalypse], and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825
All eyes are opened, or opening, to the rights of man. The general spread of the light of science has already laid open to every view the palpable truth, that the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately, by the grace of God.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Roger C. Weightman, June 24, 1826 (in the last letter he penned)
This exhibition demonstrates that many of the colonies that in 1776 became the United States of America were settled by men and women of deep religious convictions who in the seventeenth century crossed the Atlantic Ocean to practice their faith freely.
While this is true, it did not mean that the First Amendment was inevitable. Many of these people came across so that they could practice their religion freely, but they didn't necessarily believe in religious freedom for all. For example, take a look at the early history of the Massachusetts Bay and Plimoth Plantations Colony.
The original Pilgrims came over because a lack of religious freedom forced them to leave England. But they then moved to the Netherlands, not America. In the Netherlands, they were in fact free to practice their version of Christianity. However, because there was religious freedom of a sort in the Netherlands, their children were being exposed to alternate religious beliefs, and were becoming (from the Pilgrim parents' point of view) corrupted in their faith. So the Pilgrims left the Netherlands and came to America to establish a colony where their faith would be the only one, where they would be free to practice their faith, but no one else would.
Congregationalism was established as the state religion. All had to attend services and give money and other support to it, regardless of their personal beliefs. Non-conformance was punishable by fines, imprisonment, tarring and feathering, exile, and ultimately death. Some Quakers paid the full measure of those punishments. It's a long way from that to the First Amendment. I wonder if this web site will talk about that.
i was really impressed that you could spell xanax properly...lol
A Rotarian with a pedigree.
Those are not facts..those are your hard set beliefs and you are entitled to them. Facts are solid evidence of which you have provided none to support your statements. I on the other hand can provide enough evidence to place serious doubt as to whether or not TJ was a "Christian".
This was not posted to inflame people who are not capable of intellectually debating and comparing ideas without letting their emotions block reasonable discussion.
Again, see post #7
Now in my estimation that's dead wrong. I don't favor the teacher leading kids in prayers, but I see absolutely nothing in the Constitution that would ban someone from bringing a Bible to school. In fact, I'd favor the school having a Bible in it's library, along with the holy books of other religions. If someone complained about spending public money on them, I'm sure there'd be no dearth of donations. There's lots of books in a school library that kids don't read out of choice, so I don't see what complaint an atheist would have.
Yes, you are exactly right. Public school prayers were banned by the Supreme Court beginning in 1962 with 'Engel v. Vitale'.
Despite rumors to the contrary, that decision does not quote Jefferson's Danbury Baptist letter. It does quote James Madison:
It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties... Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects? That the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute three pence only of his property for the support of any one establishment may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever?
Engel v. Vitale
I dunno. I'm running a couple of debates simultaneously and apparently mixing the two.
By the way, what was our point of departure? It seems we agree too much. I'll have to look elsewhere for heated debate.
I know this thread might be considered dead, as the last post was some time ago, but I'm posting to wind anyway.
There is quite a bit of misinformation on the web, as both sides of this argument will agree-the disagreement comes when we pick which tidbits to believe and which to discard.
For example, the Jefferson Bible:
In a letter to John Adams dated October 13, 1813, Jefferson discussed
the moral teachings of Jesus, and described what would need to be
done in order to extract the "pure principles which he taught." He then
goes on to say,
"I have performed this operation for my own use, by cutting verse
by verse out of the printed book, and arranging the matter which is
evidently his, and which is as easily distinguishable as diamonds in a
dunghill. The result is an octavo of forty-six pages, of pure and
unsophisticated doctrines, such as were professed and acted on by the
*unlettered* Apostles, the Apostolic Fathers, and the Christians of the
first century." ME 13:390
Source of last two paragraphs: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7842/archives/jefbib04.htm
No mention of making it for the Indians as posted earlier; but it was not an anti-Christian act either.
The trouble is, researching what's being said from reliable sources can take hours, and then what is said is dismissed with a wave of the hand (cursor?). The fact is, Thomas Jefferson, the man who believed all men were endowed with certain rights, owned slaves (Jesus, by the way didn't have a problem with slave ownership either). Jefferson believed in God, but not the organized church (he had a deep mistrust for clergy). Don't ask me to support this, just read what he wrote - not just a quote page - it's out there. He, like all of us, was a complex human being, and sometimes he was contradictory (as we all can be).
Arguing over how many of our forefathers where Christians is not the point - that's the past. The question is: Where do we go from here? Otherwise, I could argue that many of our forefathers owned slaves, including the man who would not be king - George Washington - and that we are a nation founded on slavery, and we should return to that institution (some, of course, do believe this, but usually not out loud).
I know some of you think all liberals ought to be deported to a communist third world country, but that would be truly un-American, as we are supposed to be a nation capable of free-thought and expression. Also, liberals have done some good: human rights in this country has improved greatly because liberals (as well as some conservative Christians!) - in the good Christian south, 50 years ago, to be black was to be non-human by most white thinking (I lived through the civil rights movement - I saw the violence against blacks first hand, my wife was there when the National Guard desegregated her high school - the hate in the air was as think as cream). Intolerance breeds hatred.
Not all liberals take recreational drugs, or believe in communism, or are atheists, just as all Christians arent racists, arrogant, or overcome by a sense of persecution. To believe either of those things is prejudice. If you cant see past the label, youll never see the humanity. Let me live my life. Do not try to convert me, and I will let you worship your god(s), as long as that worship doesnt infringe on others rights. We dont have to have a label of Christian Nation to do that - we simply need to accept each other.
A note on McCarthy: With little if any proof of his charges, McCarthy relied on accusation, slander and innuendo to tarnish his opponents' reputations (a practice now known as "McCarthyism"). In 1954, televised hearings allowed millions to view McCarthy's methods for the first time, sparking a public backlash and official censure. He died at the age of 49 of complications related to alcoholism. [http://us.history.wisc.edu/hist102/bios/31.html]
The American public viewed the television broadcasts of this mans methods and stopped him from hurting more people. If our country is so great, if our form of government so desirable, why are some of you worried about communism taking over? The people will reject it if democracy is the better choice, just as the people will reject secularism if your religion is the better answer. What I sense is a fear of giving people a choice - and that is un-American.
I choose democracy (this Republic).
As a side note, crime is currently at a 40 year low, and life was never as good as you think it was.
Lastly, creating a Christian nation does not mean we are a good nation. I leave you with this quote (yeah, I know, but I told you, I can be contradictory, too):
My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech on 12 April 1922
Even a religion of love can be corrupted into something evil when interpreted in the wrong mind.
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