[i_dont_chat]

I agree with your assessment, tallhappy. I am a Houstonian and unless one has encountered a large group of out-of-control teenagers at night -- you just can't understand the threat.

I belong to a fellowship which maintains a fellowship hall; a couple of years ago, our parking lot was singled out to be the popular "hot-spot" where teenagers gathered late-night to drink and socialize on Friday and Saturday nights (exactly like what they were doing on the K-Mart parking lot). On our property, it got so out of hand, that our
janitor was afraid for his safety and refused to "drive through" the crowd. On more than one occasion, bottles were thrown at his van.

What you folks don't seem to understand is how destructive and dangerous large unruly groups of young people can be. It is the mob mentality and if you haven't witnessed it, then you won't understand.

I remember in years past when the Police Department looked the other way when the Montrose Area was being used in the same way -- as an all-night gathering place, at first by only young people, but it turned into a freak show. It was very difficult for the citizens of that area and for the Police to finally put a stop to the Montrose circus.

In my opinion, this attempt to arrest those trespassing on K-Mart's parking lot was a wise move and nipped this in the bud before people and property were hurt. Instead of giving the Police a bad time, we should be thanking them.

If there were errors made, the people will have their day in court. If I had to chose between who to trust, I'd trust the Police and our Judges before I'd trust a mob/gang/group of teenagers out milling around in the middle of the night.
You are welcome to blast me for this opinion, but unless you've experienced teenage crowds out of control, you won't understand.

[Ramius]

You are welcome to blast me for this opinion, but unless you've experienced teenage crowds out of control, you won't understand.

OK, I will, I have, and I do.

In your case, there were laws being broken that the police could and should lawfully enforce.

In this case there is no evidence that any laws were being broken. The teenagers were on private property and the owner had not filed a complaint.

If KMart had called the cops, I would be in complete agreement with you. But they did not. Until they do the cops have no basis to come in and start rounding people up. That's the way it should be.

[Thud]

I hope you live in Houston so you can pay for this.

[Double Tap]

What you folks don't seem to understand is how destructive and dangerous large unruly groups of young people can be. It is the mob mentality and if you haven't witnessed it, then you won't understand.

We understand perfectly. The charges were all trespassing. Sonic was so stunned they wouldn't allow their customers cars to be towed. Does that sound like they wanted this raid to happen to you?

[Dog Gone]

Instead of giving the Police a bad time, we should be thanking them.

Yes, thanks a lot for arresting that businessman and his wife who were pulling into Sonic to get a milkshake on the way home from playing dominos with their elderly parents. Thanks a lot for yanking them out of their new Cadillac, because that obviously was a street racing machine. Thanks for terrifying their 5-year daughter asleep in the back seat. She was a threat to the community.

Thanks for handcuffing them and taking them to jail that night. I really appreciate that excellent police work. Oh, and thanks for mid six-figure lawsuit settlement you will sock the taxpayers with to pay this man and his wife for violating their constitutional rights.

Hoo yeah. Thank you Houston Police Department for this plan you worked on for months. A few more months of this type of excellent planning and we'd have had our own Tianamen Square.

[HairOfTheDog]

All they had to do was disperse them. Cops handle groups of teenagers hangin' out in parking lots every weekend in every town across America without this much trouble.

[shuckmaster]

I'd trust the Police and our Judges before I'd trust a mob/gang/group of teenagers out milling around in the middle of the night.

If the stores are open in the middle of the night, then the customers teenage or otherwise, have the right to shop there.

[freebilly]

If there were errors made, the people will have their day in court

And you, as a Houstonian, will pay for the errors, and pay for them, and pay for them....

[StolarStorm]

I have experienced what you are writing about... yet I can't come even close to seeing that this was appropriate. Even those of us who support the police are disgusted by this gross abuse of power.

[neutrino]

What you folks don't seem to understand is how destructive and dangerous large unruly groups of young people can be. It is the mob mentality and if you haven't witnessed it, then you won't understand.

Oh, I understand that well enough. But I wonder if you've considered the dangers of mob mentality in dealing with such as issue?

As I mentioned before on another thread, one can deal with this easily enough, and do so legally. First, do an ID check. Those violating the curfew are taken in and their parents called to come get them. A citation is issued. Next, one does an ID check and determines whether there are any outstanding warrants (i.e., unpaid traffic tickets). A warrant is a court issued document that requires a Peace Officer to arrest the individual...so, obey the court order. Arrest them. Public Intoxication is a legitimate crime. Conduct field sobriety tests, and arrest those guilty of same. On vehicles that are present, conduct safety inspections before permitting them to be operated. A cracked tail light means that the vehicle cannot lawfully be operated on a public roadway.

After a few iterations of such thorough enforcement, the crowds will depart. And every single action I've mentioned is legal.

The problem with the current action is that innocent people who broke no law were arrested. In fact, it appears bunches of them were. Now what are nice, law abiding people like you and I to do when it happens to us? For we cannot know when we'll happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[tallhappy]

Thanks for your comment.

And your assessment strikes me as right on.

I have seen so many knee-jek anti-police sentiments that I am immediately skeptical of them. Plus it is a media cottage industry to drum up police abuse stories.

[niki]

I think you are taking your personal experience and applying that to this situation. The situation is not the same.

[Diddle E. Squat]

Well I understand the situation. Back in the day I did the same cruising up and down Westheimer(stayed away from Montrose, though) as a teen and college kid. Know all about that scene, its being going on for decades, and understand what a problem it can become. I sympathize with the property owners, and have no problem with a police crackdown on the rowdy elements of the post-midnight loitering. It IS a problem.

But this police raid wasn't simply going after the rowdy elements. I had the same initial reaction as you two did. But go back and read some of the prior threads on this, this was a great overreaction, didn't discriminate in the least between the punks and innocent patrons of all ages, with children, etc. Something went very, very wrong, and an earlier thread indicated that this Aguirre chief was antsy to take over and make a statement. He sure did. Arrest first, and ask questions later. And the Sonic owner did resist much of their efforts that night, shocked at the unwise treatment of the innocent customers. HPD arrested the baby with the bathwater.

Yeah, there are the Massillion-type idiots here that cry "jack-booted thug" every time an officer sneezes, and they make me angry, too. But in this case the police did grossly overreact. Occassionally the police are in the wrong, much as I hate to admit it. I urge you to read several of the earlier threads on this. It isn't the usually story of rich kids trying to get mommy to bail them out, or trumped up bogus civil-rights abuse charges by drug dealing ex-cons.

[WFTR]

You are welcome to blast me for this opinion, but unless you've experienced teenage crowds out of control, you won't understand.

You mention the story of the janitor at your fellowship. What if the police had shown up at your fellowship to make the teenagers leave and had thrown the janitor in jail when he tried to enter the fellowship to do his job? Would it have been alright to arrest him for doing his job? Exactly what law would he have broken?

People are against the police because they arrested innocent citizens who happened to have stopped at Sonic for something to eat. They arrested innocent citizens who were going to K-Mart to buy groceries, clothes, toys, or any of the other items that are for sale at K-Mart. Should someone be arrested for buying a burger at Sonic? Should someone be arrested for shopping at K-Mart?

I have no problem with dealing very strictly against mobs of teenagers who are causing problems. If the police had confined themselves to this action, the situation wouldn't be an issue. The situation became an issue because the police arrested people for engaging in the traditional American act of shopping.

I'm not trying to blast you for supporting the police, but I am criticizing you for speaking out of ignorance of the situation.

WFTR
Bill