Glocks are not cheap. - FACT
Glocks are VERY reliable. - FACT
Allow me to give you an example. The sun is hot is a fact. The sun is pretty in an opinion.
Stay safe; stay armed.
Posted on 08/23/2002 2:24:12 PM PDT by archy
Defects in NYPD handguns
Half subject to jamming
By BOB KAPPSTATTER and ALICE McQUILLAN
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITERS
Tuesday, August 20th, 2002
More than half of the Police Department's handguns are subject to jam without warning, a potentially dangerous flaw that can leave the weapons as "useless as paperweights," police sources said. Although the jamming is rare, the NYPD has been concerned enough to order a recall of 24,000 semiautomatic Glock handguns so they can be refitted.
This problem affects the Glock Model 19S - the gun carried by about 60% of the department's 39,000 officers. The flaw, in which the shell casing fails to eject, has only arisen during practice and tests at the NYPD firing range, police officials say.
"Our studies have shown this to be a rare occurrence," said police spokesman Chief Michael Collins. "In the worst-case scenario...we estimated that this has happened only once in 450,000 times when fired."
However, during an actual gun battle in Brooklyn, two Emergency Service Unit officers reported that their Glocks failed. Collins said that after an investigation of the October 2000 incident, ballistics experts said whatever problem those guns had, it was not the jamming malfunction that is the subject of the current recall.
To correct the problem, the Austrian-based Glock company has sent engineers to the NYPD's firing range at Rodmans Neck in the Bronx. Since June, they have repaired 3,200 weapons in a procedure that takes about an hour. Immediately afterward, officers tested the refitted weapons at the range, where the results have been excellent, Collins said. The process will continue until all 24,000 Glocks are fixed, he said.
There is a delay in fixing all the weapons, sources said, because cutbacks and the redeployment of officers to special details have made it difficult for cops to schedule time to have their guns repaired.
Sources also said that some of the Glocks have a different problem - locking. When a gun locks, a user can get it functioning again by removing the clip holding the ammunition and manually moving the slide to eject the stuck shell casing.
In that scenario, the source said, "You can be back in the gun battle in a matter of seconds, as opposed to the total jam where the guns become [as] useless as paperweights."
Not just IDPA. I shoot at three different ranges in the local area. Competition, training and just plain plinking at paper targets. And the vast preponderance of semi-auto handguns I see are Glocks.
Now most of these people are civilians, but the outfit I train with is run by LEOs, and this group absolutely swears by them.
The State of California is down on Glocks for two reasons: 1) The state doesn't like the lack of an external safety and 2) Glock didn't cave in and cut a deal with the Justice Department to avoid the liability lawsuits the Clinton regime tried to ram down the industry's throat.
California just loves Smith and Wesson, for obvious reasons, and mandates them as the standard duty weapon for a lot of LEO agencies.
The Glock's action is AFAIK completely unique. Indeed, I would like to see the terms "Single Action (SA)" and "Double Action (DA)" replaced with four terms, defined as follows:
If one reversed the functionality of the brake pedal (so the breaks would be engaged except when pressure was applied) that might be sorta right. But IMHO the Glock's safety is the easiest one to use properly. Just three rules:
I was using Wolf ammo. Upon firing, the case split, wedging itself firmly into the barrel, which required disassembly of the gun to get the @#%$^ thing out. My local gunsmith told me it's the third problem he's seen with Wolf ammo doing bad things in glocks (one of the other two, it blew up the glock).
Solution: don't use Wolf ammo any more (it's Russian-made using laminated steel case instead of brass). I got it as cheap practice ammo, but it's not worth the risk
one in 450,000.
let's see here... i shoot idpa... tell me that a 1911 won't jam in 450 shots... just nine boxes...
BWAHAHAHAHAHA... AHHH HAHAHAHA HA.
oh gosh. please stop, you're killing me here.
Glocks are not cheap. - FACT
Glocks are VERY reliable. - FACT
Allow me to give you an example. The sun is hot is a fact. The sun is pretty in an opinion.
Stay safe; stay armed.
My Glock only fires when I pull the trigger. My Glock ALWAYS fires when I pull the trigger.
I am beyond the point of needing a "beginner" gun.
Stay safe; stay armed.
Solution: don't use Wolf ammo any more (it's Russian-made using laminated steel case instead of brass). I got it as cheap practice ammo, but it's not worth the risk
I've seen similar problems with the mini-Glocks using aluminum-cased *Blazer* ammo from CCI, cheap for inexpensive practice and a neat technological step forward, but far from perfected, it seems. I have had six Glocks since they were introduced, and am now down to two; they've been very reliable and servicable for me, and I have no complaints, but I've gone back to the original full-size Glock 17 9mm and a mini-Glock 30 in .45 for concealment use.
I'd be very interested in knowing what tmodel of Glock you observed your difficulties with, and any more details you might share about your pal's Glock blowup, being known more and more commonly by the less precise term *Glock kaBOOM.* But it's also worth noting that military-issue M1911A1 had difficulties with WWII issue steel-cased ammo too, often found with the headstamp *EC43* from the E/vansville C/hrysler plant where it was produced by the millions. Various stoppages and extractor breakage have been reported, as has ejector battering and ejector pin shearings, though the ammo reportedly functions fine in .45 Thompson and M3/M3A1 submachineguns, in which its use was really intended.
But my dad carried it in his Air Corps-issue .45 with which he guarded Norden Bombsights and classified target analysis documents, and my paternal grandada carried the stuff in the Reising submachinegun with which he guarded a critical railway bridge when there were well-deserved concerns about enemy saboteurs landed by submarine. So the stuff was around then, and sometimes still shows up as closeouts of leftover wartime stocks, nearly 60 years after the fact.
The lesson is clear: a good handgun deserves good ammo. And Glocks are also known to be very intolerant of imprecicely reloaded fodder, so stick with high quality factory ammunition.
-archy-/-
If this is true, the New York Police Department may have the world's most reliable pistol.
Indeed. And I wish it were true. Surely they wouldn't LIE about such a life-and-death issue, so maybe he's just less than fully knowledgable, per previous FREEPpost *here*:
As this malfunction became more of an issue, the Department naturally approached Glock, Inc. and requested assistance. At the onset, Glock refused to acknowledge the problem and only reluctantly agreed to replace one-for-one the guns that displayed the problem. NYPD felt that this did not address the issue properly. I personally know one officer, one of the most senior members assigned to the Emergency Services Unit, who had two different Model 19 pistols Phase Three on him three times on two consecutive days. This MOS is a great shooter and knows how to operate in a hostile environment. He gave up and purchased an S&W Model 5946 from the approved list. While NYPD itself was attempting to downplay the issue with MOS by asserting that the Phase Three malfunction had only occurred at the department range during practice and qualification sessions, they were, unfortunately, being less than truthful. As a Sergeant in a confidential investigative unit in mid-1997 I personally delivered to the range a Model 19 that had locked up tight after a Detective got off one round in a street confrontation. Fortunately the perps fled after that first shot and my guy was uninjured. In 1998 as a Lieutenant I worked with a police officer whose Model 19 did the same thing in a running gunfight. Fortunately for him he was with other MOS whose guns did not malfunction, and the bad guy was turned into a colander.
They used to, and that may have been part of their problem, lessened sinch their change to a higher-intensity loading. Obviously, in heavily-populated New York, overpenetration wiould be of considerable concern, and there are two ways to address that: with a lower-powered load that doesn't penetrate as much, or with a hotter, lighter hollowpoint bullet that expands in the intended target [IF it's hit...big *if* there!] and has its penetrating ability reduced thereby.
But see following, from the material posted iat the link in the previous post:
When this issue first arose circa 1996 the NYPD was utilizing a standard pressure 115 grain FMJ round produced specifically for the department by Winchester. It was designated a non-standard load by Winchester, and identified as the "Q4146" round. Since this was not a very hot load it was postulated that the ammo was the cause of this malfunction. Unfortunately, when the NYPD transitioned in 1999 to a "hot" 124 grain +P Speer GDHP that was specifically "souped up" to around 1225 FPS, the occurrences of Phase Three's diminished, but did not altogether disappear. It should be noted that during this time frame none of the other department-approved 9mm semi-automatic pistols in use experienced a single Phase Three malfunction.As this malfunction became more of an issue, the Department naturally approached Glock, Inc. and requested assistance. At the onset, Glock refused to acknowledge the problem and only reluctantly agreed to replace one-for-one the guns that displayed the problem.
While the Glock 19 has been purchased in higher numbers (25,000 units) than either the S&W 5946 or Sig-Sauer P226 DAO variant, approximately two-thirds of NYPD's last academy class chose a handgun other than the Glocks as their duty weapon.
This is FACT.
Roger that! A beginner asked me the other day about buying a Glock as a first weapon. Even though I admire Glocks (I have three, with thousands of rounds and no FTFs yet), I advised against it until he has more experience. I suggested a Beretta (safety/decocker) or a Ruger (DA/decocker) instead.
I suggested he consider a Glock when he instinctively knows the best primary pistol safety is the gray organ between the ears.
Mine is a glock 30 in .45 cal
The glock that blew up was a glock 19. Don't know further details, was told this by the gun-store owner who I had help me get the case out of the gun. In all three events, the cause was a case rupture. The case that caused my problem had a crack from the case mouth down 2/3rds of the case. I think I'm fortunate that it didn't crack all the way down, spewing hot gas into my almost-full mag
Of these the only one that jams is the PP, if you feed it cheap hollowpoints.
Before 1994 the primary weapon was a Walther P1, backup #1 was a P4 - I switched because the P38 line doesn't like to feed all hollowpoints (but they do like the FL ammo - it was designed for it) and you don't always know what ammo you will be able to get.
Try the Federal 9BP 115-grain load [#16 in the display below] or the Remington 115-grain RNJHP [#4 below] for use in a P.38 or aluminum-framed P.1, long a favourite of mine, though usually taking a backseat to the Browning GP I've carried and used since 1969. You'll likely find that it's not the hollowpoint configuration itself, but the overall length of the loaded round, that's critical in feeding in a P.38 or PP, and a PPK is even fussier, possibly because of the greater magazine spring pressure from its 1-round-shorter magazine.
I had a little PP in 7,65 that was one of the most accurate of it's breed I've ever had, and let it go to a fellow newspaperman facing death threats, who practiced and practiced with it and became extremely good with it, the only firearm he owned at the time. At least it went to good hands, but I've often wondered if it had been tuned, and if so, by whom and using what methods. I replaced it for my own purposes with another plain-jane Makarov, whose safety at least works the way I prefer.
Various 9mm projectiles performance compared in ballistic gelatin here:
For the record in my group we split about evenly between the three, and I would imagine thats how its gone for the other companies as well. I've put about 500 rounds through my Sig so far and I'm quite happy. I shot two 98s and a 96 in my pre-qualifiers and I haven't looked back. No phase 3's from the Glocks that I've seen. To be honest I heard the phase 3 rumors around the department and on the web before selection and all the secrecy coming from Glock made a difference to me. Either tell me it isn't true or admit it and fix the problem.
The glock that blew up was a glock 19. Don't know further details, was told this by the gun-store owner who I had help me get the case out of the gun. In all three events, the cause was a case rupture. The case that caused my problem had a crack from the case mouth down 2/3rds of the case. I think I'm fortunate that it didn't crack all the way down, spewing hot gas into my almost-full mag
I shoot a G30 in .45 as well, one of the two Glocks I now own. I've tried a G36, but it doesn't fit my hand as well without the Pierce magazine/grip extension, which I also have on my G30. My reloads are Glock 21 magazines left over from one of my previous Glocks, now happily at work for a local Sheriff's deputy.
Note too that some of the old steel-cased ammo also used a mild steel jacketed bullet, and some examples have been founded rusted solidly together, little grenades just waiting to be fired after all these years. Best left to the collectors....
Hope your Glock continues to work for you as well as mine have for me. But I tend to err on the side of conservative caution and doublecheck reports with my own experiments. I think I'll see if I can get my Glock 17 to exhibit a *phase 3* malfunction. Whether it does or not, it should be fun expending a few thousand rounds to find out, and the Glock 18 33-round magazines are a hoot to run through.
-archy-/-
If its a Glock, yes. Not to take away from the multitude of other fine weapons, but I have 2 Glocks and trust my life to both.
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