AMNESTY FOR ILLEGAL ALIENS? (a question for Freepers)

August 22nd, 2002 | Sabertooth

[Sabertooth]

This is a vanity post, let's get that straight from the start.

Perhaps the most vain aspect of it is the conceit that it might stay on topic, but I'm going to give it a whirl.

One of the more contentious species of threads encountered on Free Republic are those dealing with the subject of America's immigration policy, particularly with regard to the Illegal Aliens currently in our country. According a range of reasonable sources, the estimates of their numbers here currently here range from six to thirteen million. Whatever the actual count, there are quite a few people now in violation of American immigration law.

One subtopic that inevitably arises is the question of Amnesty:

Should all or some portion of the Illegal Aliens be granted an Amnesty and be thereby allowed to change their status and acquire legal residence in the United States?

That's the question I'd like to put forward to the members of Free Republic.

Almost as inevitably on threads dealing with this subject, flame wars erupt. It's not my purpose to instigate another round of that, they're rather predictable. So I'd like to ask that your comments, if you're inclined to share them, focus on the big picture of American immigration policy, with particular attention to the subject of Amnesty. I'm not interested in the stock and gratuitous divisiveness of race-baiting or referring to the President as "Jorge," or anything of that nature from any quarter. It achieves nothing, it's sulphurous methane heat with no light shed.

I'd also like to avoid ad hominem ambushes. I'm genuinely interested in learning the collective feelings of Free Republic members on this subject. If you're gonna post, I'd like to ask that you ante up with your opinion on the question at hand before engaging the discussion with others. No taking potshots from the obscurity of the sidelines. I'll post my opinion below at #1.

Fair enough?

So, once again, here's the question:

Should all or some portion of the Illegal Aliens be granted an Amnesty and be thereby allowed to change their status and acquire legal residence in the United States?

[TomGuy]

I was listening to Rusty Humphries on TRN Internet Radio on Friday. He opened his broadcast with a report (I missed the exact source) that apparently the Republican HDQ has made a (strong) recommendation to candidates to avoid the "illegals" issue completely.

The RNC and GWB are pandering full speed to Hispanics. On the Republican National Committee website is the following report:

For Immediate Release
August 20, 2002
Contact: Sharon Castillo
202-863-8614

Latinos Give High Marks To
George W. Bush;
Agree With Him On The Issues
President job approval rate reaches 68%

WASHINGTON -- A national Hispanic survey conducted by The Latino Coalition (TLC) shows Latino voters overwhelmingly support President George W. Bush and his vision for a promising future for all Americans. The Poll of 1000 Hispanic adults, conducted from Aug 2 – 14, 2002, shows the President’s job approval rate among Latino voters reaching an unprecedented 68%. Among non-registered voters, President Bush enjoys a 74% approval rate. In an impressive show of solidarity Latinos would elect President Bush over Al Gore with a 15-point margin, 50-35%, if the elections were held today. “There is no doubt that Latinos overwhelmingly trust President Bush to speak for them in Washington. Hispanic voters clearly understand who has put forth sound policies to deal with topics from immigration to healthcare. Latinos are taking note of who really works with and for them in the nation’s capital,” said Sharon Castillo, RNC Deputy Communications Director.

The survey shows that:

84% of Latinos approve of the President’s plan to offer a $3000 tax credit to uninsured workers.

73% of Latinos agree with the President that a prescription drug benefits plan should focus on assistance to low-income seniors.

83% of Latinos approve of President Bush’s plan to normalize the status of 3.5 million immigrants through temporary workers program. Latinos give congressional Republicans a 42% job approval rate, a significant 19-point increase from last year.

The Latino Coalition (TLC) survey was conducted by Opiniones Latinas and has a margin of error of +/- 3.1%.

===============================================

Fall in line, sheeple.

The leaders of both political parties are in a contest to see who can out pander the other with regard to Hispanic illegals, other illegals, invisible (i.e., non-existent) borders.

Leaders in both parties are pandering the Sovereignty away. Look for 245(i) Amnesty for Illegals to be back on the table (quietly, of course) before the end of the year.

[4Freedom]

Funny that this article doesn't mention Latino support for a single fiscally or socially conservative idea.

Just what we needed. A whole new batch of RINOs.

[madfly]

Great Find. If you can get the source from Rusty Humphries for the opening paragrpah, this should be posted on its own!

[Barnacle]

Sure. If he's hard working, cooks me dinner, sweeps the floor and cleans the bathroom. Why not?

Because whether someone broke into my house, or broke into my country - they are criminals.

[Barnacle]

The leaders of both political parties are in a contest to see who can out pander the other with regard to Hispanic illegals, other illegals, invisible (i.e., non-existent) borders.

You got that right. Did you hear the DemocRATs almost stuttering in panic while trying to convince Hispanics not to believe Bush's pro-Hispanic amnesty?

[4Freedom]

I agree with everything in your post with the exception of a minor modification or clarification of the last.

I believe the cowardly smugglers (coyotes) will use women and children as human shields. The military will have to find ways to avoid those casualties. They'll have to employ a lot of non-lethal means to stop illegals, as well.

The open borders advocates used the death of a teenage goatherd, who was probably being employed as a lookout by the coyotes, to have the military removed from the borders, last time.

I'm sure you didn't mean to show any casual indifference to the death or severe injury of women and children, but there are those on this thread that will try to twist your statements to mean something of the kind.

[phil1750]

I guess I am too simple. Why should political parties fight over the vote of illegals? They only get to vote in St. Louis.

[Barnacle]

Perhaps because the politicos think the party that hands the Illegals their citizenship will have their loyalty as well.

[4Freedom]

Illegals are voting all over the country.

[WRhine]

Look for 245(i) Amnesty for Illegals to be back on the table (quietly, of course) before the end of the year.

Yep, right after the election. The GOP will try to buy as much time as they can before the 2004 election for memories to dim on this latest upcoming assault on our sovereignty.

Enough is enough. I've made up my mind to sit out this election. So long as Bush and the GOP grovel on the ground for the illegal alien vote I'm not going to reward them with my vote. Truth is that Conservatives have become the classic Battered Wife of the Republican Party.

[Physicist]

This is a tough one. I'm torn between "partial amnesty" and "no amnesty". They key issue is whether I get to pick the criteria under which illegals get to stay, or whether I have to accept (sight unseen) a set of criteria picked by an unknown set of apparatchiks. Can I pick a subset of illegals that would be a great benefit to the United States? I have no doubt I could. Could any combination of government functionaries do the same to my satisfaction? Highly unlikely.

Mark me down however you think best represents what I just said.

[William Terrell]

I think we have to get past the idea of illegal immigrants getting hurt. If we can't hurt them physically, there is no threat to attempting invasion, which may work if they can run fast enough. While we may slow it down, we won't by much and we won't stop it.

I don't like the idea of injuring people either, especially women and children. But we have to admit that taking women and children in an attempt to cross the border after the graphic warning that'll be issued prior to implimentation and permanently posted. It will be the sin on their side, not ours.

Hopefully, the natural empathy of human beings will keep the soldiers from firing in all but extreme circumstances, but there will always be the percentage of mean bastards that will get one of these posts. It's a sad fact that such people exist, but exist they do and if we stop needful action because of the fear of these being part of the guard post then we may as well throw in the towel.

Anybody that reads this can call me a heartless SOB. But here is the truth. There are times to be sweet and times to be deadly, and that's the way of the world. When we float too far from the way of the world we start having trouble like this.

If a program like this was put in place, soon those issues will be moot. There will be no coyotes because there will be no one willing to chance it.

[humblegunner]

"Or if you know people who haven't, feel free to flag them here. "

Thoughts???

[F.J. Mitchell]

"No I don't, and I never said I did."

Must be something got lost in the translation, I could have sworn that was what I read.

Maybe you were saying that this special amnsty that you support, will only be for those who enter illegally, marry an American citizen and don't get caught until the marriage is five years old. If so I have a better idea: Consider the American that marries an illegal alien, an illegal as well and rather than amnsty-deport them both.

[Marine Inspector]

Hello everyone,

Several parties have privately asked me to comment on this thread, and post my thoughts. I know this thread is about amnesty, but any amnesty must be incorporated into an entire revamping of how the US manages its immigration system.

First off, I want to apologize for the length of this post, but I want to do this all at once.

Secondly I would like to congratulate Sabertooth for trying to keep this thread civil. This will be the last time I use anyone's screen name.

I usually try to stay away from threads like this because it inevitably turns ugly between the two predominate groups. I personally do not consider myself to be in either group, and am aligned some where down the middle.

Most everyone here somewhat educated in the history and problems with our current immigration system. What I bring to the table is the perspective from inside the system. I have worked for the INS since 1997 and spent my first 2 ½ years along the Mexico border. I am also a 12-year veteran of the Marine Corps Infantry.

Mexico makes up the majority of illegal aliens in this country, so my comments will be geared toward that country and it's people. Do not call me a racist because of this. No other 1st world country shares a 2,000-mile border with a 3rd world country. Mexico is a problem, not the Mexican people. To be brutally honest, the stupidest people I've encountered in the INS is the average American.

THE INVASION

This term has been tossed around a lot on this and other threads and I have personally used it and do so for a reason. Numbers. The sheer numbers of illegal aliens crossing our borders equates to an invasion. The majority of these illegal aliens are here for work and money, not to take over the country or do this country harm, but on the other hand, there are people out there that will use this mass of people to do just that. Not every loves America, and that goes for some of our citizens.

So the question is: How do we control and stop this invasion.

This is an issue of supply and demand, and if we concentrate on the supply, we have lost. Just look at the war on drugs. The Government has concentrated on the supply, ignored the demand and we have lost that war. Drugs flow freely into the US, or the drug makers just come here and make the drugs within the US. If we do the same with the immigration issue, we will loose.

Why do these illegal aliens come to the United States? Work and Money. I've talked to hundreds of these folks in the past 5 years and it's always the same. "I came to find work", "There are no jobs in Mexico", I need money to support my family", ect…

So to fix the problem, we must start inside the United States and work outward to Mexico and Canada.

The first two things that must happen are employer sanctions and cut off any form of welfare to any illegal immigrant.

We must get serious with employer sanctions. The penalties must be so severe that no one would dream of hiring an illegal alien. Employers must go to jail and assets must be seized and sold off to pay for the cost of enforcing immigration laws.

Currently, the INS must give 48 to 72 hours notice before showing up at a business, with that much notice, it's no wonder these employers a thumb there noses at the laws.

Next is to cut off welfare and benefits to everyone except US citizens. Yes everyone but US citizens. I will cover legal immigrants at the end of the post.

If there were no jobs and the government would stop giving benefits to people illegally in this country, these people would leave or better yet, never show up.

These are the most important things that must be done and will do more for reducing the number of illegal aliens crossing or living in the US. Cut off what they are looking for and they will not come.

Next we must control the border. This is the most controversial part of the plan. We could build a wall as some of you have suggested. I personally disagree with that method. I really do not want our borders to look like Berlin during the cold war, and walls can be breached.

The other popular opinion is to place the military on the border. On this I am mixed. I am against placing infantry units along the border or manning a wall. That money could be better spent. Sending military police units to help the border patrol would be ok, but what needs to be done is just allowing the Border Patrol to do their job. Placing an agent on an "X" in the desert works against controlling the border. The Border Patrol should be an active mobile force, not a stationary, ineffective security guard.

Coupled with the reduced numbers created by enforcing the interior immigration laws, the Border Patrol could handle the illegal aliens coming across the border.

The final part of the plan, and probable the most difficult is to turn Mexico into a 1st world country. If Mexico had an economy and middle class like us and Canada, that would take care of 80% of our immigration problem. I'm not an expert in this area, so I won't comment on how it should be done, but I can tell you it needs to be done.

Along with the enforcement of the interior and the borders, several other things need to be done.

Legal immigration

The total number of legal immigration needs to be reduced, the diversity visa program needs to be abolished and the anchor baby problem needs to be eliminated.

Legal residents need to be required to become citizens or return to their home country. Believe it or not, Bill Clinton had a good plan when he first became president. When a legal resident reached his five-year mark, he must either apply for citizenship or extend his residency for 5 years. At the end of the second five-year mark, the legal resident must apply for residency or turn in his resident card and return to his home country and lose the right to immigrate in the future. Coupled with this, the citizenship test must be tightened up and enforced.

Guest Workers

This is another hot topic. Some people are for a guest worker program and some against one. First off, we have a guest worker program. It's called the "H" visa. If we need workers, then have them apply for an "H" visa.

The first thing is to create a new "H" category for general employment, second restrict "H" visas to the actual need. Don't say we are going to grant 10,000 "H" visas each year. Make the employer prove he has a need for the visa and grant them on a case-by-case basis.

Secondly, do not let anyone adjust from the working visa to a legal resident, unless it is to marry a USC. The current "H" visa program is a back door to legal immigration. This door must be shut.

Amnesty

All of the current and past amnesties are unacceptable. In post #000 I outlined the only amnesty I would approve of. This would be only for illegal aliens married to US citizens, and would be part of my overall package of immigration reform. That proposal is not perfect and some of you may disagree with it, but I have personal reason for wanting to keep legitimate families together.

Summery

All of the above reforms or proposals are very general in terms and I'm sure some of you may find flaws in them. If you would like to have a friendly discussion about them, then feel free to post back to me. If you're just going to grip and complain, then feel free to post also, but don't expect a reply.

From what I've seen on this thread and others, is that almost everyone agrees that illegal immigration is bad and needs to be controlled, but not everyone agrees on how to do it. Too many times, people get pissed off and baited into an argument on the issue. You know who does not agree with you, so ignore that person. All the arguing in the world won't change his or her mind.

Jim Robinson has said, that to get control of the borders we need to vote out the Democrat's. Unfortunately, IMHO, that won't work. There are just as many Republicans that are for open borders as there are Democrat's, the President being one.

For anything useful to happen, we as conservatives and republicans, need to work together, or the problem will not be solved. Each and every one of us needs to get out and get involved in our communities and inform people about the problems surrounding illegal immigration. There are many Internet sites that can give you good information to use as ammunition. Study the information, inform the masses and don't get baited into an argument.

Most of you people are in a better position to get out and get involved, because of my position in INS, I am limited as to what I can do. I can't talk to the media or get involved in local politics, but you can. I'll be happy to get you whatever information I can, so feel free to ask.

Sincerely,

MI

[janetgreen]

I think its time to get behind your President and change your mind on bashing immigrants.

By "immigrants", do you mean illegal aliens? There's a difference.

If you're interested, I'm not "bashing" anyone except those in our government, including our President, who forces me and other American taxpayers to support lawbreakers who sneak into our country with false documents, use up our resources, our schools, our hospitals and our generous social services at an alarming rate.

I will continue to "bash" the elected ones who turn their backs on existing laws, who wink and look the other way while our country is being invaded. I follow the laws of this land, do you? Why shouldn't "immigrants" follow the laws?

I will continue to "bash" those elected ones who choose to create a slave labor community in America for the sake of getting votes for themselves, and for the sake of the large and small companies who are demanding the slave labor, all the while ignoring the downfall of American cities, many of which are looking more and more like the third world the illegal aliens came from.

Get behind my President? Why? The "tax cut", which is our money anyway, has already been used up tenfold for the sake of the invaders who come here because they know the stupid American government will support them. I'll support Mr. Bush when he comes to his senses about immigration policy and closes the border, not until then. Sorry if you don't like that, but I'm getting old, and never in my life have I seen such an insult to America as this immigration mess.

[Marine Inspector]

Amnesty info is at post #510.

Sorry.

[janetgreen]

Watch out about responding to him with anything less than his own insults>/i?

You're right. Sometimes he makes me so mad that I take the bait. He must be a disruptor, because I can't believe that any sincere person is really that dumb!