AMNESTY FOR ILLEGAL ALIENS? (a question for Freepers)

August 22nd, 2002 | Sabertooth

[Sabertooth]

This is a vanity post, let's get that straight from the start.

Perhaps the most vain aspect of it is the conceit that it might stay on topic, but I'm going to give it a whirl.

One of the more contentious species of threads encountered on Free Republic are those dealing with the subject of America's immigration policy, particularly with regard to the Illegal Aliens currently in our country. According a range of reasonable sources, the estimates of their numbers here currently here range from six to thirteen million. Whatever the actual count, there are quite a few people now in violation of American immigration law.

One subtopic that inevitably arises is the question of Amnesty:

Should all or some portion of the Illegal Aliens be granted an Amnesty and be thereby allowed to change their status and acquire legal residence in the United States?

That's the question I'd like to put forward to the members of Free Republic.

Almost as inevitably on threads dealing with this subject, flame wars erupt. It's not my purpose to instigate another round of that, they're rather predictable. So I'd like to ask that your comments, if you're inclined to share them, focus on the big picture of American immigration policy, with particular attention to the subject of Amnesty. I'm not interested in the stock and gratuitous divisiveness of race-baiting or referring to the President as "Jorge," or anything of that nature from any quarter. It achieves nothing, it's sulphurous methane heat with no light shed.

I'd also like to avoid ad hominem ambushes. I'm genuinely interested in learning the collective feelings of Free Republic members on this subject. If you're gonna post, I'd like to ask that you ante up with your opinion on the question at hand before engaging the discussion with others. No taking potshots from the obscurity of the sidelines. I'll post my opinion below at #1.

Fair enough?

So, once again, here's the question:

Should all or some portion of the Illegal Aliens be granted an Amnesty and be thereby allowed to change their status and acquire legal residence in the United States?

[Sabertooth]

...next question.

Soon.

[Landru]

"Soon."

HA!
How is it I somehow already sensed there was another paw as-yet to drop?

...(~probably because I've seen the BigCat's tracks, many times before. ;^) )

[Ajnin]

They say that there is a lack of jobs, yet they come here wearing gold jewelry, STARTER sportswear and assorted name brand and knock-off styles in clothing. How the hell do they clothe themselves in the latest fashions if there are not any jobs in Mexico? Ya know what I'm saying? I don't think that Mexico is so corrupt that they can't make a decent living for themselves in their own country.

[Sabertooth]

INS OUT!

In a strange way, for particular bureaucrats, I find myself in agreement with this statement.

[Twodees]

Get beyond your cocoon in Virginia, and look at those states where large numbers of illegals are residing

That's good advice. I live in Virginia and we're overrun with illegals. One would have to be in a coccoon not to have noticed it. All anyone has to do is go to a WalMart on Saturday or Sunday and see how many illegals show up to do their shopping. To find out how many are illegals, simply yell "LaMigra!!!". 'Course the result may be like yelling fire in a crowded theatre, so you'd better do it in the parking lot. ;-)

On a more serious note, in Blackstone, Virginia there are two guys who drive vehicles with Texas plates and the paintings of the Virgin of Guadalupe on the back. They're organizers for that farmworker's union, a farmer told me, but they're also labor contractors.

[Twodees]

Think Bush senior asked the Big K to make that public suggestion?

I wouldn't doubt it in the least. Bush would probably fall at Dr. K's feet if the cameras weren't always on him.

[Sabertooth]

According to the Adjudication Officers here in the Phoenix district, that I have talked too, about 60% off this districts 245(i) applicants are foreign-born spouses.

Is that an off-the-cuff, ballpark figure, or a hard number?

Of the remainder, some will be siblings or children. How many Section 245(i) Amnesties were granted to Illegals sponsored by employers?

[borderwatch]

I agree, no amnesty for illegals! plus...

[Ajnin]

I see we have the military on the border crowd chiming in. For those of you that want the military on the border, what exactly do you think the military is going to do? How do you think that the military is going to stop illegal immigration? I keep asking this question and nobody answers. If our government wanted to do something about illegal immigration we would not need the military on the border. If our government does not want to do anything about illegal immigration what good is placing the military on the border going to do?

[Reaganwuzthebest]

There's lots of people living in cocoons here in NY too, even more so, since illegal aliens haven't found their way to this area in large numbers yet. The politicians are all RINOs or democrats, who get teary-eyed at the slightest reading of that wonderful poem that needs to be removed.

[4Freedom]

I believe you're obfuscating the truth, again.

You sound just like one of the Clinton apologists we had to suffer for 8 years. Maybe unintentionally. Can you really be part of the "it depends on what your definition of the word is, is" crowd? I hope not.

Here's your false premise #1: "Look over the major quotes he had on immigration in general and the impression I have is he apparently considered extending 245(i) as an option.

That's absolutely daft. This is supposed to be a conservative Republican we're talking about here. The Bush's are supposed to bring a breath of 'fresh air' to Washington, not more Clinton-like deceptions.

There isn't a normal, reasonable, logical, conservative Republican that could look at any one of those complete quotes or any combination of them and conclude, as you just did, that Bush was considering an extention of 245(i) or some other kind of amnesty.

Unless they're working under the assumption that he's just like Clinton.

You jump to the conclusion that he's considering another last, last amnesty from this quote?

"We must do a better job of STOPPING those who seek to come into our country ILLEGALLY. I SUPPORT STRICT BORDER ENFORCEMENT PROGRAMS such as OPERATION HOLD THE LINE which concentrated border patrol officers and resources at known border-crossing points. I believe it is far more compassionate to turn away people at the border than to find and arrest them once they are living in our country illegally."

So, according to you Bush isn't saying that the job we have of tracking down the illegals we already have here now is going to be tough, so let's get tougher on the borders.

He's proposing an extention of 245(i) and amnesty?

Now we have the Chutch Brother's Las Vegas Mormon Mission Political Polling Place and Psychic Hotline.

I took that quote to mean that illegal immigration would be dramatically reduced after he took office.

So, if you snow us with your false premise #1, then your false premise #2 is the next obvious, illogical conclusion we all have to jump along with you to:

"Therefore, I think it is fair to say that he was pretty up front that some form of amnesty might be an option - it certainly was not ruled out."

That's pretty up front? It certainly was not ruled out? Bush certainly didn't rule out legalizing child pornography, either. Do we have to worry about that, too?

Now, it's ok for a Republican to throw out the Party platform and put an open borders Libertarian in charge of the INS, if he didn't rule it out?

I'll never trust him, again.

The fact that he didn't just come right out and say it during the campaign tells you what? That he was being deliberately deceptive and hiding his open borders, immigration agenda.

Conservatives are going to logically conclude that Bush Jr. is going to ashcan 120 years of tough Republican Party immigration planks and pull a Bush Sr. by offering another amnesty when Republicans had PROMISED the American people that there would NEVER be another amnesty?

What Bush's quote on Proposition 187 meant to a lot of us was don't take the parents status out on the kids.

That's dishonest for Bush to say anyway, because the kids were being punished for their own illegal status.

But even you can't reasonably expect that what we were supposed to conclude Bush meant was that he was going to amnesty them all? Can you?

"...'scientific polls' that some folks here insist on being the measure of the political attitudes."

I've said that polls aren't perfect, but what I also said is that I'll believe a Zogby poll before I BELIEVE YOUR BROTHER'S OPINIONS!

You resent the implication that you're liberal and yet what poll do you come up with? THE NEW YORK TIMES!

You use a poll of theirs that doesn't even mention immigration to conclude that immigration isn't even an issue? Not even with conservatives?

You, Bush and your friends at the LIBERAL New York Times are in for a surprise.

[hchutch]

Really? Then again, he was a freshman Senator who got in on Engler's coattails in 1994, and couldn't do so hot in 2000.

Here's my question: Are you willing to blow judicial nominations, the tax cut, the war on terror, a sensible forest policy (which Bush has recently been pushing), and a host of other things that Bush has done RIGHT in his term of office over a disagreement on this issue?

Even if I were to disagree with his policy, I would not be totally cutting off his support.

Oh, and keep in mind - if those immigration reform groups had their way a few decades back, Michelle Malkin might still be in the Phillipines as opposed to being here.

And, by the way, here's the numbers on immigration:

When it comes down to the level of immigration, while a plurality (49%) wants the levels decreased, 48% say they should stay the same or be increased (36% stay the same, 12% increase).

And, as far back as June, 2002 (nine months after 9/11), 52% still felt that immigration was a good thing. And by a 51-31 margin in December of 2001, people felt immigrants contributed to the country as opposed to making problems.

http://www.pollingreport.com/race.htm#Immigration

If anything, the contribute/cause problem numbers have REVERSED from 1994 (the heyday of Prop 187), which were 53-29 saying they caused problems (see above URL).

I don't think you can claim credit for Abraham's loss.

[WRhine]

You seem to have conveniently forgotten the removal of Michigan Senator Spencer Abraham in 2000 specifically due to the immigration issue. He was targeted by immigration reform groups who pointed out his record to voters, who in turn decided his "bring in the world" policies were not to their liking.

I forgot about that too! As the immigration crisis worsens we will see more of this in the GOP.

It is interesting though that Abraham’s time in the political wilderness was quite short. The Bush Administration seems to hate the thought of any open borders liberal being poltically irrelevant.

[WRhine]

No matter how hard you try, you cannot square your position on amnesty with the fact it's a democratic initiative. Not even Bush is calling for the kind of sweeping forgiveness of lawbreakers that you are. His main focus to date has been extending 245(i), but what you're advocating more resembles Dick Gephardt's proposal. I'm sure you'll come back demanding an apology and reassuring us you're the most conservative member on this board, but facts are facts, it's the liberals pushing to reward the border jumpers.

Well Said!

[hchutch]

If that is the case, well, then that's probably the only time I've ever gone with the Dems on an issue.

It does NOT make me a liberal. It doesn't make me a squishy moderate. I'm still a conservative, and while I cannot stop you from deriding me as a neo-conservative (which seems to be the new perjorative favored by the folks who still think it's the 1950s).

I track my political views very close to Reagan, Bush Jr., Tom DeLay, Henry Hyde, and a number of other rather conservative people. If they are flaming liberals, then I've got this bridge for sae dirt cheap if you are interested.

[Marine Inspector]

Is that an off-the-cuff, ballpark figure, or a hard number?

Yes it is. I've been trying to get hard numbers, but nobody I've talked too knows the exact number.

Of the remainder, some will be siblings or children. How many Section 245(i) Amnesties were granted to Illegals sponsored by employers?

I was told approximately 1/3. That's an off-the-cuff, ballpark figure also.

As soon as I can nail down some hard numbers, I will let you know.

[Sabertooth]

Sidebar: I'm partiularly interested in your opinion on this question, because you've been the most vocal in support of any form of Amnesty, and have probably taken the most heat.

Are you generally satisfied with the tone of this thread?

Should those who might share a minority opinion on the question of Amnesty feel hesitant about expressing their opinions here?

[borderwatch]

Military on the border? possibly, maybe the Mexican govt. would be so apt to take "alleged" pot-shots at our border patrol.
I believe an answer to this would be a complete over-haul\stream-lining of our agencies(INS,etc..). Also, change the immigration laws that were inflicted on all of us back in 1965..thank you Ted Kennedy.